Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2018 July 2

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July 2

Location, location, location

Where does someone like Alan of Lynn go? I found this rascal in Lynn (surname), but that didn't seem right. (I currently have him parked in Lynn#People and fictional characters.) Clarityfiend (talk) 02:43, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

What do you mean by "Where does [he] go"? He's already in 12 Categories. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.0.113 (talk) 11:35, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Well, that puts him in company with Nicholas of Lynn, which has the advantage of consistency. "Lynn" as a surname may well be derived from a place name in some lines, but Alan and Nicholas seem to be from a time before the transition completed. I won't change what you did, but I will listen to arguments for a different treatment. - Donald Albury 12:15, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

I also dug up Nick and put him there too. I'm really after a general system of handling situations like this, or do Francis of Assisi, Clare of Assisi and Vitalis of Assisi not need grouping together? Clarityfiend (talk) 22:52, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

If there is an appropriate disambiguation page, then articles of the form [[someone]] of [[someplace]] would fit in. See Ockham. There is no disambiguation page for Assisi, but it looks like there are ten articles beginning with Assisi. I've created disambiguation pages with fewer articles than that. - Donald Albury 01:04, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm going to put them in the See also section of dab pages (e.g. Assisi (disambiguation)). They're not really legitimate dab entries, but something should be done. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:43, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

What does "eighth smallest" mean?

Hi!

In Caelum the constellation is referred to as the "eighth-smallest" of 44. It is a small constellation so I know what it means but it is not an unambiguous description; it is also the eight largest!

What is the preferred way of describing order?

Thanks. Saintrain (talk) 15:19, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

You need to clarify your problem. "Eighth smallest" means that seven constellations are smaller than it; it's not also the eight-largest, it's the 36th-largest (or possibly 37th-largest, but the uncertainty there is in my arithmetic, not linguistic). Henry^Flower 15:45, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

37th largest would be correct. There are 44 items. 7 are smaller than the item in question, 36 are larger than the item in question. Hence the item is 8th smallest and 37th largest. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:56, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

This is the language desk, not the science desk, but there are 88 official constellations, not 44, and 88 is what Caelum actually says. So the 8th-smallest is the 81st-largest. --76.69.47.228 (talk) 19:22, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Old Joke: "I came in second, he came in next to last". It was a two-person race. -Arch dude (talk) 17:38, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

"Next to last" is an American expression I just don't get. It sounds like the competitors were next to one another, or side by side, i.e. a dead heat for last. HiLo48 (talk) 22:59, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

"Second to last" is another way to put it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:40, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

"Next to last" makes sense to me, but "second to last" always confuses me. If we list the competitors in order of finish, I am last and the person who finished before me is "next to last". That is, he/she is the next one up the list. "Second to last" always makes me think of the person two places ahead of me. (Full disclosure, I am an American.) --Khajidha (talk) 18:36, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

last --> ultimate

next to last, last but one, second to last --> penultimate

third last --> antepenultimate

- Nunh-huh 19:10, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

(There are 88, not 44, modern constellations. Sorry.)

But these phrasings just ring flat with me. It sounds like it would correct to say Caelum is 10 times smaller than Hydra the 88th smallest.

Just sounds weird. Saintrain (talk) 19:56, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

No, what sounds weird is describing the largest of them all, Hydra, as "88th smallest". In a long list sorted in decreasing order by size and numbered sequentially, something nearer the top would be described in relation to the top ("5th-largest"), and something nearer the bottom would be described in relation to the bottom ("3rd-smallest"). Or, just specified by its absolute rank: "Of the 88 constellations, XXX is ranked 81st in size". You cannot infer anything about the relative size of any two constellations from such a statement. All you know is that there are 80 constellations larger than XXX, and 7 smaller than XXX. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:41, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Have you studied Latin? The eve of a festival is pridie ("the day before") and the day before that is ante diem III (the third day before). 2A00:23C1:3180:6501:54B9:1664:8B5F:A8FA (talk) 11:24, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes, for Latin speakers, due to inclusive counting there is no 2nd day before; the day before pridie is the 3rd day before. Not the paradigm for English, though. - Nunh-huh 11:42, 6 July 2018 (UTC)