Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2016 August 8

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August 8

Is "White Indian" the name of a language?

The infobox in our article Dragon Blade (film) mentions seven languages used in the movie including "White Indians" and "Huns". The review of the film in Variety [1] (which is generally a thorough and reliable source for this type of information) lists “Mandarin, English, Hun, White Indian, Uyghur, Kusan, Saklar, Turkic dialogue”. Presumably "Hun" means Hunnic language but what is meant by "White Indian" as a language? All I could find by Googling is an unanswered question on Quora [2]. Mathew5000 (talk) 02:42, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Maybe White Hmong? I don't think this is a term that has ever been in use- there are no results on Google Books. DTLHS (talk) 02:52, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

If that film actually has dialog in Hunnish, we need to send copies to some historical linguists stat. --Lazar Taxon (talk) 07:20, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

I haven't seen the movie, but after reading the synopsis in our article, I'd say "White Indian" probably describes the Kidarites. At times, they were known in India as White Huns, it wouldn't stretch the imagination too far to believe that the Chinese referred to them as White Indians.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 10:04, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

I checked Chinese language reviews of the movie, the Chinese term that corresponds to "White Indian" is "白戎", the "White Rong", which is identified in ancient Chinese records as a branch of the Xirong, which is a group of peoples that appear in ancient Chinese records, but the name "Xirong" probably meant no more than "barbarians to the west". It is not possible now to seriously discern who the "White Rong" were or even to guess what language they speak, but the name "White Rong" is popularly used in contemporary Chinese historical romantic fiction. Identifying the "White Rong" with India seems to be an invention, since the ancient Rong lived in modern-day Shaanxi and Ningxia in China - a long way away from India.

According to reviews, the alleged "White Rong" character in the film actually spoke his lines in Uighur. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 12:46, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

I haven't seen the movie, but presumably given the time period and the peoples mentioned, this was refer to Indo-Aryan peoples, as opposed to Dravidian peoples or those speaking other non-PIE languages of India. I.e., this, and not the person shown on the right here, as opposed to the left. This certainly has nothing to do with the Hmong, who live in Southern China, and whose whose various "colours" (including "red") have nothing to do with skin color. μηδείς (talk) 00:47, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Why do you say the Xirong were Indo-Aryan? From what I have read, by all accounts they were distinguished from the "Chinese" only politically and socially, not racially or ethnically. Based on that and where they lived it seems more likely that they were Sino-Tibetan speakers than immigrants from the other side of the Himalayas. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:54, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, @PalaceGuard008: I have edited the article in question accordingly. --Mathew5000 (talk) 23:41, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Can the word "altogether" be used in this sense, and if not, is there a word that can?

The first ever Olympic medal for Kosovo was a gold medal won by judoka Majlinda Kelmendi. So, can one say that:

Kelmendi won the first gold medal, and medal altogether, for Kosovo at the Olympics.

If not, what other word can be used? --Theurgist (talk) 11:07, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

You can't convey the meaning like that. I would suggest

Kelmendi won a gold medal (the first - ever Olympic medal for Kosovo) at the Olympics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ‎ 86.149.13.241 (talk • contribs) 11:11, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Informally, I would say "[t]he first gold medal, and the first medal period, for Kosovo...". For more formal writing, maybe substitute "medal of any sort" for "medal period". --Trovatore (talk) 11:44, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

 I suggest : "Kelmendi won a gold medal (for?_____), the first time any Olympic athlete from Kosovo has won a medal in an Olympic event."  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.82.108.162 (talk) 12:43, 8 August 2016 (UTC) 

I might try to convey more excitement with:

"Kelmendi won the first Olympic medal ever for Kosovo, but not just any medal, it was the gold !"

StuRat (talk) 13:16, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

How about, "...won the first Olympic gold medal, indeed the first Olympic medal ever, for..." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:46, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

If this is for Wikipedia we don't want excitement. I suggest: Kelmendi won the first Olympic medal ever for Kosovo, a gold. Or else describe the win some other way, and then say It was the first Olympic medal ever for Kosovo. --69.159.9.219 (talk) 18:05, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Anything that doesn't use "the first ever medal" is fine by me. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:31, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

My enemy's enemy is my friend

Here's a quote from The Jews of Bielorussia During World War II by Shalom Cholawsky, Amsterdam 1998, ISBN 90-5702-193-5 at page 210:

Among the partisans there were also members of the local population who were hostile towards the Jews, and even though this was certainly known in the ghetto, it seems that when the partisans first appeared in the region, the Jews believed that they shared a common ground with them through their enmity to the Germans and that the enemies of my enemies are either my friends or at least comrades in arms.

This observation is topical, with the coalition suggesting cooperation with Assad to defeat Daesh, but who made it originally? Does it date back to Stalin joining the Allies during the Second World War? 86.149.13.241 (talk) 11:08, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

See: The enemy of my enemy is my friend. -- ToE 12:47, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Then there's the argument for prune juice: "The enemy of my enema is my friend." StuRat (talk) 20:56, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

That's why grandchildren and grandparents get on so well. They have a common enemy. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:29, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

• Obviously the statement is untrue, all sorts of land conflicts (Germany, Russian, Austria-Hungary over the Partition of Poland; Spain, France, England, Russia, the USA and the indigenous peoples over much of North America) were three-way or more, and there is divide and conquer and the fact that the Algonquins, Iroquois, and Cherokee basically lost the Eastern US by taking the wrong side on the French & Indian War. Truisms are truisms; they are not "truth". μηδείς (talk) 01:44, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

• (It should also be pointed out that it doesn't hold for the Syrian Civil War at all - Turkey and the Kurds are both fighting Daesh, but also fighting each other, while Russia and Assad are at war with both Daesh and with Syrian rebels who are also at war with Daesh.) Smurrayinchester 08:12, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

• Those cases mean it's not universally true, they don't mean that it's never true. The most obvious case is that the Allies during WW2 had to include the genocidal Stalin in order to win. In cases where 2 parties got along well before they had a common enemy, their cooperation to defeat that common enemy is even more likely to work. StuRat (talk) 20:48, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

• Indeed, but a truism that isn't true at least most of the time isn't much of a truism. Matt Deres (talk) 16:43, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

• That's why it's a truism. If it were always true, or even mostly true, we'd call it a "truth". Because it's only "truish", it's a truism. --Jayron32 17:52, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Arabic translation?

Can anyone tell me what the Arabic at the end of this video says? And if the captions match their translations? Thanks, †Dismas†|^(talk) 22:53, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

أفضل يوم تحياه

هو اليوم الذي تساعد فيه شخصًا آخر دون مقابل

هذه هي أخلاق العرب

The best day

is a day when someone helps without charge

These are the ethics of the Arabs —Stephen (talk) 05:45, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks! †Dismas†|^(talk) 14:46, 9 August 2016 (UTC)