Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 November 24

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November 24

learn

Hello, on this page: http://www.naturalchild.org/naomi_aldort/manners.html , the sentence of "The parents of these parents must have told them to say 'please' and 'thank you', yet they didn't seem to learn it.", the word learn means to use a habit? À la 雞 (talk) 03:49, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article titled Learning, which explains the concept. If English is not your first language, you can find a list of articles on the left side of the article in the small section titled "Languages" which contains Wikipedia articles in other languages. If you can find your native language, perhaps that can help you some. --Jayron32 03:55, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I see 4 possibilities. Even though told to so something...

1) They never remembered it to begin with.

2) They later forgot about it.

3) Although they know it, it's not automatic. That is, they have to think about it each time they do it.

4) They choose not to do it.

I would say any of the first 3 cases could be described by saying they didn't "learn" it. #3 relates to whether or not it has become a habit. StuRat (talk) 04:45, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

• Applying the habit would be evidence of having learned it. —Tamfang (talk) 09:04, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Obviously if you do something regularly you've learned how to do it (like riding a bicycle). But if you don't do it that may simply be evidence that you've learned that doing it is wrong - for example riding your bicycle the wrong way down a one - way street. 78.146.229.66 (talk) 12:23, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

There are related concepts that fall under related terms. The answer to your question is yes—"the word learn means to use a habit". But the word learn would also mean to acquire a habit. One can "learn" something in theory and one can learn something in practice. If one does something by rote, obviously one has "learned" to do that thing. If one knows perfectly well to do something but nevertheless chooses not to do it—one still has "learned" it. One has simply chosen not to apply what one has learned! Bus stop (talk) 12:49, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

"juniper Germans", "willow Russians" and "brushwood Englishmen"

This online encyclopedia about Estonia informs me that Those who made an effort to mimic some other nationality in their speech and way of life were accused by Estonians not so long ago of being "juniper Germans", "willow Russians" or "brushwood Englishmen". Why junipers? Willows? Brushwood? I don't get the joke. --Edith Wahr (talk) 12:03, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Could this be in the same vein as calling somebody a "backwoodsman?" 78.146.229.66 (talk)

Regarding the juniper Germans: "The name of juniper (the plant in the genus Juniperus) is kadakas in Estonian. In the second half of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century a similar noun kadakas and the compound kadaka/saks (saks ‘squire, vulg. German’) or kadaka/sakslane (sakslane ‘German’) were used for Estonians who tried to look like Germans and spoke (usually incorrect) German (EMS II: 453). Although folk etymology would associate the Estonian words kadakasaks, kadakasakslane, kadakas ‘(half-) Germanized Estonian’ with ‘juniper’, the disdainful words have nothing to do with the tree. Instead, it is a loanword borrowed from the German compound word Katensaße ‘slum dweller, craftsman’ (< Kate ‘hut, shanty’ + Saße ‘place of residence’), which has been folk-etymologically modified to sound like certain familiar words (Saari 2004: 119–120)." From a Dialect Dictionary to an Etymological One by Vilja Oja and Iris Metsmägi, Institute of the Estonian Language) ---Sluzzelin talk 12:38, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

ah, thank you, very interesting. A gbooks search for "Katensasse" and, even better, "Wacholderdeutsche" yields some more clues. But what with the "willow Russians"? --Edith Wahr (talk) 13:15, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I wasn't able to find anything. The Estonian word for willow is paju which sounds a bit like "(Я) пою", Russian for "(I) sing". But that didn't lead me anywhere either. As for the brushwood English, I couldn't even find which Estonian word might be meant here. (I don't know Estonian at all). ---Sluzzelin talk 13:25, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

there is an Estonian Version of the article, which has pajuvenelasteks and võsainglasteks (which I presume is not the nominative form, I don't know Estonian either, just some Finnish, which doesn't get me far here). --Edith Wahr (talk) 13:31, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I have asked for help at WikiProject Estonia. ---Sluzzelin talk 17:58, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Here (pdf, 2 pages, in Estonian) is some content and even a sketch depicting, seemingly, from left to right, kadaka-saks, paju-venelane, and võsa-jänki or võsa-inglane. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 10:28, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

24 - hour clock

Walking through Liverpool Street Station this morning I heard the automated announcer calling "The midnight 33 train to Chingford". I didn't check the indicator board but presumably this train would have been gazetted as the "00:33", same as in the timetable. Has anyone else come across this construction? 78.146.229.66 (talk) 12:15, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

US East Coast: Never. But, of course, the US is pretty rigorous in using the 12-hour clock for civil purposes. I've never seen a (civil) US train or bus schedule printed in 24-hour time; that train would have been gazetted here as the "12:33". So that train would really always be called the "twelve thirty-three", whether just past noon or just past midnight. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:55, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

"Gazetted" ? Does that mean "posted" ? Certainly not a word used much here in the US. Is it widely used in UK English ? StuRat (talk) 19:05, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

How would have expected "00:33" to be pronounced? All the options sound odd to me. Nought-nought 33? Oh Oh 33? Zero zero 33? /Coffeeshivers (talk) 17:33, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Formal R/T usage would be ZERO-ZERO-TREE-TREE - see NATO phonetic alphabet#Digits. I'd personally say "Oh-oh thirty-three" (when "twenty five to one" would be insufficiently precise), and presumably Network Rail have their own standards on how to say the time. Tevildo (talk) 18:27, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Not the OP but I would have expected "twelve 33" in the UK. As an announcement in the middle of the night, this is not ambiguous. But otherwise "oh 33", copying "one 33" for 01:33 --Lgriot (talk) 18:46, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

But coming between the "twenty-three thirty-three" and the "one thirty-three" services, it might sound odd. Smurrayinchester 10:57, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Zero Dark Thirty-Three ? :-) StuRat (talk) 19:09, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Western US and I have never heard a construction like "midnight 33" or "noon 33". I would use "33 (minutes) past/after midnight". --Amble (talk) 19:23, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

The train announcements of this nature in UK stations are usually automated rather than spoken live, and at some point have been pieced together from a recording of various numbers, etc. This particular announcement would therefore have had to follow the same pattern as all the other such announcements, e.g. ". . . seven thirty-three". {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 185.74.232.130 (talk) 15:08, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

A search for midnight thirty shows many hits from both sides of the pond, but I wouldn't regard it as standard in the UK.

Gazetted is not a word that I would ever use, but it is a British term for an official announcement, going back, I think, to the colonial army. Dbfirs 21:39, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

See Gazette#Gazette as a verb. I've not encountered this particular railway use of the term before, but here's another example. Tevildo (talk) 23:47, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

• To avoid confusion in train timetables (for example, with day tickets), a train which starts before midnight but runs overnight will sometimes have the post-midnight times marked as "24:xx" (this is the standard in the automated General Transit Feed Specification, for example). Although you don't see this much in the UK, perhaps it's the same kind of thinking. Smurrayinchester 10:57, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

• When the Canadian Pacific Railway first opened, its two western divisions used the 24-hour clock while its two eastern divisions used the 12-hour clock. In the 1974 book Van Horne's Road by Omer Lavallée, on page 259 a pair of the timetables showing its the CPR's first transcontinental passenger train service, in 1886, are shown. These were obviously produced by staff in two different offices. One timetable shows the westbound Pacific Express as far as Port Arthur, arriving there at "4 00 PM" (this would be Eastern Standard Time, but it is not explicit). The other, showing the rest of the trip, shows the same train, now identified as No. 1, departing Port Arthur at "15.10" Central Standard Time. Anyway, that night that train stops at Vermilion Bay at "24.58" and then at Gilbert at "1.17". Similarly, the following night it stops at Pense at "24.45" and then at Pasqua at "1.30", Mountain Standard Time; the night after that, at Radnor at "24.31" (if necessary), followed by Morley at "1.00"; and the next night, Pennys at "24.55" followed by Ashcroft at "1.43", Pacific Standard Time. Clearly someone in authority at the CPR in 1886 found it abhorrent to start a time with the digit 0, even if this meant that the hour number did not restart with the new day but instead one hour later. Perhaps "midnight 33" is an example of the same feeling in 2015. --70.49.170.168 (talk) 12:33, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

I recall in the late 1960s as a Cub Scout in the UK, having to learn the 24-hour clock specifically to be able to read train timetables. I also dimly recall there once being a dispute between the British Army and the Royal Navy as to whether midnight should should be called "twenty-four hundred hours" or "zero hour", but can't recall what the outcome was and can't find a reference to it online. I suspect these things have a NATO standard these days. Alansplodge (talk) 11:40, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

24-hour_clock#Midnight_00:00_and_24:00. Mitch Ames (talk) 09:41, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

And no British train is ever timetabled to arrive or depart at midnight in order to avoid confusion as to which day is intended. See "Using the Table" on page 4 of this. DuncanHill (talk) 11:58, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

450th anniversary

The anniversary page mentions "sestercentennial" and "sesquarcentennial" as names for the 250th and 350th anniversaries. How would you name the 450th anniversary using the same rules used for coining these terms?? Georgia guy (talk) 17:04, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

It appears "sesquincentennial" is in use in some places: for example. This is often confused with the 150th anniversary of "sesquicentennial" as they differ only by a letter. (note comparisons of -quin- for five with above: -ter- for three and -quar- for four). --Jayron32 17:08, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Then there's the 451st anniversary, which is called the inconsequencentennial. μηδείς (talk) 05:02, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

What does the prefix "incon-" mean?? Georgia guy (talk) 13:31, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

That would be Latin for "not con-". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:00, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

So that would mean a 451st anniversary is a "not in sequence 100th anniversary", which makes no sense. Georgia guy (talk) 14:13, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

For further info, study Joke and write a book report on the subject. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:51, 26 November 2015 (UTC)