Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 April 17

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April 17

In (the) hospital

I know that in the US people say that a person is "in the hospital", and in the UK we say "in hospital" - [1]. Which style is prevalent in Australia and New Zealand? Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:11, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

In the North of England (at least the North West), we use both, but certainly witha preference for the latter. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 12:36, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

In Scouseland it would be "ozzie" or even "in the ozzie". Martinevans123 (talk) 12:44, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Din' wanna confewze tings, lar. Sum pipl 'ere a forrenuz. In fakht, 'in ozzie' iz not az commun az 'in dee ozzie'. Ah'll ass me baird n see wo' she sez. :) KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 14:22, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

"Cairm down! Cairm down!" (... Dey do, doh, don't dey, doh?) Martinevans123 (talk) 15:23, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

The Scottish Corpus gives 23 occurrences of "in the hospital" and 64 of "in hospital", but it is obvious from the result the "the" version is more colloquial. The British Corpus gives 271 "in the hospital" and 1697 "in hospital".--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 16:22, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

'In hospital' down here. But are you sure the USians say 'in the hospital', outside of contexts where the particular hospital is specified? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 13:32, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, Jack, we do. We say "in jail" and "in school", but for some reason we use the definite article with hospital even if the particular one is unknown or unspecified. Deor (talk) 14:26, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. But you're just using one way to analogize... there are other analogies to draw. Do they say "He's in bathroom [or restroom/water closet/whatever]" in the UK? Or "I have a flat in city?" Or, turning it around, do they say "Let's go to hospital?" I suspect not for all of these, but someone will correct me if I'm wrong about that. I don't think this dropping (or adding, depending on your perspective) of articles follows any rules or patterns. I think it's just custom and accident of history, but I'd welcome refs to the contrary :) SemanticMantis (talk) 15:38, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

'in hospital' also occurs in Canadian English, at least in Ontario. Rmhermen (talk) 15:09, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

It occurs, but it's unusual. For me (SW Ontario), it's always "in the hospital". If I hear it without the article, I assume a foreign speaker who hasn't had all his articles returned during the customs check. Matt Deres (talk) 16:10, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

I was born in Women's and Children's Hospital in Detroit, due north of the SW Ontario city of Windsor, and grew up watching three U.S. TV stations and one Canadian station. Not surprising that broadcast language diffusion would allow Americanisms to seep across the border. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:16, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Actually it may be broadcast language where it differs. I keep hearing Ontarians denying that they use "in hospital" but it noticeably jumps out as odd when I hear it on CBC. When I check, for instance, a recent border shooting I find: U.S. sources: "the hospital" NY Daily News; "at a hospital", NY Times; "a hospital", USA Today; "to the hospital", WXYZ Detroit, "a local hospital", NBC; versus Canadian: "from hospital", CBC; and Toronto Star, "in hospital", CTV News and AM980 London. Rmhermen (talk) 03:10, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

As another Ontarian, to me "in hospital" sounds like the sort of thing very very old people would say, or "broadcast language", as you mention. "Two people are in hospital following an accident" for example, sounds very journalistic. If I was talking about a family member, I would of course say "in the hospital". Adam Bishop (talk) 14:21, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Adam, are you OK with "I almost bumped into novelist Margaret Atwood on the street today"? Or would you naturally say "... the novelist Margaret Atwood ..."? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:35, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Why would you say 'almost bumped into [smbdy]'? Would you have been in a car and nearly rear-ended the car in front? Or would this be in a supermarket, where you are too busy looking at the items on sale to care about your surroundings, but barely managed to not bump into someone else who was likewise not caring about their surroundings? Or does it mean you just happened to see someone whom you do not wish to talk to and were able to hide yourself from? KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 09:05, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Either would be fine in the US. StuRat (talk) 19:42, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

The first version is a bit more natural-sounding, but both would work for me too. It would be unnatural to have to describe who Margaret Atwood is, haha. In fact I actually used to live in the same neighbourhood as her... Adam Bishop (talk) 20:52, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

I was assuming you were talking to an international friend who may have vaguely heard of her but wasn't sure what she was notable for, so you were just helping them out in order to avoid them having to ask and reveal their shameful lack of knowledge. Sorry. Perhaps I should have stated that assumption, but I assumed you would have assumed I wasn't talking about a fellow Canadian. Lesson: It's fine to make assumptions, as long as you don't assume that such assumptions bear any relationship to the truth.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:09, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Margaret Atwood transcends all borders and nationalities! (I'm pretty sure.) Adam Bishop (talk) 14:18, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

I've never heard of her. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 08:58, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

"This is an aiport announcement. If you see an indefinite article in the departures lounge, please notify security immediately." :) In English, we can say 'He has gone to the airport,' even though there are multiple airports in my area alone. 'In the hospital', to me, would normally be for either a visit or as an out-patient. 'In hospital', on the other hand, would generally refer to the person being an in-patient. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 16:50, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

See also this previous thread on the same subject (I remembered it because I started it). Alansplodge (talk) 17:48, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

At a quick scan I didn't see anything in that thread about (the) sea, which seems to be the same issue. I always remembered it as "home is the sailor, home from the sea, and the hunter home from the hill", until I actually re-read it and noticed that the first the wasn't there. --Trovatore (talk) 20:35, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

That is because the sailor is not the actual house. 'Home', here, means 'at home', just with the 'at' missed out. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 11:36, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Hmm? Not sure what you understood, here.

Actually, I looked it up again, and I'm not sure which is the offical line. What I was remembering was that I first read it as "home is the sailor, home from the sea", and later found out it was "home is the sailor, home from sea". But when I searched it again, I found the version I remembered the first time. So maybe I just invented the "home from sea" version in my head? Not sure why I would do that, exactly. --Trovatore (talk) 18:11, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I misunderstood that you were saying that the word 'home' should have had a 'the' before it. 'At sea' is perfectly common, and I guess that 'home from sea' could be analogically acceptable. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 13:46, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Following up, though not sure anyone else cares, here's what happened. "Home is the sailor, home from the sea" is indeed the line from the piece I was thinking of, namely Requiem by Robert Louis Stevenson. However, "home is the sailor, home from sea" is the first line of Home is the Sailor by A. E. Housman. So probably at some point I searched for the Stevenson line and found Housman hits, and mistakenly marked down in my head that I had misremembered Stevenson, which in fact I had not done. --Trovatore (talk) 03:10, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

I once spent six months in the hospital, although there were three of them, two unaffiliated. μηδείς (talk) 18:20, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

I was in the hospital three times last year. Remind me to get the brakes on my mountain bike fixed. <- Now, here, nobody reading that sentence knows which hospital I went to, as I haven't specified one, but it is perfectly acceptable for me to use 'the' here. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 06:38, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Any Aussie worth his salt would say that without the "the", unless he were referring to a particular hospital. That's why we're special. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:33, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, in the UK, as iterated above, we can say it with or without the 'the'. We Brits are flexible. This is how we invented your country. :) KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 10:20, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Ha! We've taken it upon ourselves to relegate you from "mother country" to "foreign power".  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:29, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Ah, but you still have our flag covering part of yours, and you yourself even bear its name, dear Jack... :) KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 22:15, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Grrrrr ... -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:11, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

All the anarthrous cases are institutions, whether or not they are also places. So "to prison", "to school" are like "to choir practice" or "to tennis" rather than like "to the sea" or "to the house". This still doesn't answer the question of just which institutions are anarthrous, or the different answers to that question in different parts of the anglosphere. --ColinFine (talk) 11:26, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Helpful link. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:03, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Alternatively, use 'define:anarthrous' in a Google search. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 14:02, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

To <something or nothing> hospital

My edit summary here reminded me of the above discussion. In a similar case, where the identity of the hospital was completely irrelevant, would other ENGVARs say that he died:

• on the way to a hospital
• on the way to the hospital, or
• on the way to hospital (my preferred version)? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:11, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Funnily enough, this very morning one of the anchors on Canada AM said someone was "taken to hospital". Adam Bishop (talk) 12:44, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

(Non)Chalant

You can do something in a nonchalant manner. Can something be done in a "chalant" manner? Why is there no such word (at least in English)? Dismas|^(talk) 22:19, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Solutely not. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:30, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

nonchalant/nonchalance aren't listed there, but there are other examples in our article unpaired word.

The verbs nonchaloir and chaloir both once existed in French, but in French too, only the negative form "nonchalant" has survived as an adjectival gerund, so it's an unpaired word in French as well (though there is the noun "chalant" as a rare variety of chaland, which has the same roots, but isn't the antonym of nonchalant). ---Sluzzelin talk 22:56, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Hmmm... sounds like "chalant" is dyscromulant. Or should that be noncromulant? Or incromulant, etc, etc? --Shirt58 (talk) 02:33, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

None of the above. Whatever the prefix may be, the ending is -ent, not -ant.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:36, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Well I know you are all upside down, Jack, on your side of the world, but what on earth are you saying? Dbfirs 09:06, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

I think the confusion comes because you only have one vowel in your six letter username. :) See cromulent. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 09:23, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank, KT, and apologies to Jack. I see what he was replying to now (It's not a word in my dictionary). Dbfirs 09:35, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Why Aye, yee should get yeeself a be'ah one then :) Or does Biffa Bacon count as a dictionary up there? :) KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 09:46, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

I had to look that up because I'm a long way from Newcastle (actually nearer to Scouseland linguistically). My dictionary has "cromlech" but is probably waiting to see whether "cromulent" takes off as a word. It's only in Wikipedia and Wiktionary that I have ever see it, though it's possibly more common on the other side of the pond where it was invented. Dbfirs 10:46, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

As Wiktionary says, it was a humorous neologism by some random American comedy writer, and I have only seen the word used twice - both times here on the Ref Desk, and actually both times in recent weeks. I doubt the word will take off, as its meaning (as stated in Wiktionary) is far too broad. And sorry for the Newcastle reference, but anything further up north than us up north is Geordie, and I couldn't find a cartoon about Woollybacks. :) KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 11:41, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Oh golly, golly gum-drops. This little koala suspected that "dyscromulant", "noncromulant" and so on might be misspelled when the browser spell-checker put wavey red lines under them. But as an arboreal herbivorous marsupial, I'm rather nonchalent about these sort of things. Phascolarctos cinereus aka --Shirt58 (talk) 12:44, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

The Silly Islands

I unagree, the term cromulent is certainly less dispopular on the side of the pond where it was coined than on the other side of the pond where it was invented. Given it is a millennium old, it's dislikely to inappear. μηδείς (talk) 18:06, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Given the British term for grammatically correct, "glamourous" has taken on other meanings, one needs such a term as cromulent. μηδείς (talk) 18:18, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

I note that Wiktionary has yet to create an entry for the old Scots term glamerous (noisesome). Dbfirs 19:28, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

That term "nonchalant" means "not caring".[2] So you could theoretically say you're doing thinks "chalantly", but you would be more apt to say "caring" or "careful". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:57, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Or "undisinterested". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:27, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, that's just silly. μηδείς (talk) 20:34, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

You undismisunderestimate Jack's wisdom, Medeis. And what the hell has that map got to do with this thread? KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 06:33, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. But wisdom? Must be the Wisdom of the Ancient.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:26, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, you must admit, you are no spring chicken, are you? Or would that be a spring Echidna, whatever the bloody hell that is? :) KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 09:37, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

All that matters is how one feels. I, for example, feel like a healthy young man. (His name must be Sebastian and he must have emerald green eyes.) :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 09:53, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, that rules me out on all four counts. :) KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 10:16, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Ah, so your name is Sebastian! μηδείς (talk) 04:08, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

No, just the 'man' bit applies to me. At least, the last time I looked. :) KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 04:56, 21 April 2015 (UTC)