Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 September 22

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September 22

Quick translation from Norwegian

On this page, we're told that the poet Hallfreðr vandræðaskáld død ved 1007. Google Translate thinks this means "death by 1007", which I think we can assume should be more like "died by 1007", but also lists "dead on" and "dead at" as alternative translations for død ved. There are slightly different meanings here – the ambiguity being whether he died in 1007, or is known to have been dead at that point – which I'd like to clarify for use in the article 10th century in poetry. Can anyone offer clarity on which of the meanings is correct? Thanks in advance! – Arms & Hearts (talk) 01:54, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

This page has a very long account of his life and work, in Danish. The relevant part is rendered by Google Translate as follows:

Then had Hallfreðr rest no longer, he was still on holidays (summer 1005 he sailed to Iceland and Gunnlaugr with him), his joy was over. His last trip to Iceland he did to hænte all his, as he intended to stay with his eldest son in Sweden. They had a hard storm, and Hallfreðr was sick. Once he sat down tired of spoon, then beat a wave of the ship, it tore him, and sail pole fell on him. Shortly after he died, his body was in a coffin thrown overboard. The coffin washed ashore on Jona and was found by the abbot journeymen. They broke it up and plundered it. But their misdeeds were discovered, as in the saga called, in that King Olaf appeared in dreams to the abbot - this poetic narrative features denotes the heartfelt relationship that had existed between the king and Hallfreðr -. The body was later buried, and the treasures that were in the coffin, used for lime, altar cloth and candlesticks. Once this is done, can not be determined a priori, but it is most reasonable that it occurred omtr. The 1007th

In spite of the broken English, that seems clear enough for your needs. Looie496 (talk) 02:35, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I'd render it as "died in 1007". Here's my (human) translation of the same Danish text above, with a few notes on things that are a little unclear:

Hereafter, Hallfreðr had no rest; he was constantly travelling (the summer of 1005, he sailed to Iceland along with Gunnlaugr [another poet]); his zest for life had gone. He took his last trip to Iceland in order to collect his things, as he intended to stay with his oldest son in Sweden. They ran into a severe storm, and Hallfreðr was sick. As he sat down, tired from scooping [water out of the ship, given the storm], a wave struck the ship, knocking him down and causing the mast to fall on him. He died shortly thereafter; his body was thrown overboard in a coffin. The coffin washed up at Jona, and was found by the abbot's explorer [I think "svende" is an old word; Google offers up "squire" and "journeyman" as well]. They broke it up and plundered it—but their misdeeds were discovered, as it is told in the story, when king Olaf appeared in the abbot's dreams. This poetic narrative denotes the intimate relationship that had existed between the king and Hallfreðr. The body was then buried; the valuables in the coffin were used for lime, an altar cloth, and candle sticks. When exactly this happened is difficult to say, but it is most sensible [or reasonable, etc] to say that it occurred sometime around 1007.

 dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 03:35, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I suppose "Jona" actually means Iona, for what it's worth. It seems a little unlikely that his coffin would have washed up there, but not impossible. Looie496 (talk) 17:18, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

It seems a little unlikely that a small ship (I guess it was small, because bailing was feasible) would be carrying a coffin, just in case somebody died. If the risk was considered great enough to make carrying a coffin worthwhile, I think I'd skip the journey to Iceland to retrieve my valuable lime (seriously, lime?). Perhaps he had a deathwish.  Card Zero  (talk) 19:43, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

'Svend' is unambiguous. "Svende" is plural. See the etymology in Sven, i.e. squire, in its original meaning, as parodied by Sancho Panza's relationship to Don Quijote. Assistants of a king or nobleman of high rank, carrying their weapons, traveling with them (hence journeyman edit: see my post below), and assisting in battle. "Sven", "Svend" and "Svein" are common Scandinavian given names. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 19:00, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Huh, I never knew that—"squire" isn't exactly a common word nowadays, so I suppose that's why I'd not seen it before in any language but English. Are most people named "Sven" (or Svend or Svein) familiar with the origin of their name? I dunno how it is in European countries, but here in the US, most people seem to be unfamiliar with the origins and meanings of names.  dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 20:40, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

If they have paid attention in their history classes, I suppose they will know the origin of the name, at least if they're my age (in their fifties). Whether the term is used when teaching history today, I don't know. I tried it out with a sample of one (age 23, not named "Sven"). She didn't know. Regarding the etymology: our article states that the original meaning is 'young boy' or 'young warrior'. The term "Svenn" (current Norwegian spelling) or "Svend" (current danish spelling) has another meaning in Norwegian and Danish (don't know about Swedish, there's no interwiki link). A "svenn" is someone who has completed an apprenticeship and is fully educated in a trade or craft, but not yet a master. The test you must pass is called is called "svenneprøve", which is a term that just about every Norwegian above the age of 18 will be familiar with. The same system appears to be is use in Germany, see de:Gesellenprüfung. Following the wikilinks then led me to the page journeyman, which explains some of the confusion: A journeyman is someone who has completed an apprenticeship and is fully educated in a trade or craft, but not yet a master. ... The terms jack and knave are sometimes used as informal words for journeyman. Hence the expression "jack of all trades, master of none". --NorwegianBlue ^talk 08:05, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

The related English word swain from Old Norse sveinn has become archaic, but means (mostly) a young man courting his would-be sweetheart. This use is somewhat self-consciously old-fashioned, but not so rare or archaic as the other meaning of "a rustic peasant/yokel".

Thanks everyone! – Arms & Hearts (talk) 22:26, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Without knowing what notation is used in that database, even in Norwegian saying that someone died ved 1007 sounds odd. I suppose that one could have said før (before), omkring (around)/cirka (circa) or i løpet av (during - for which the preposition could be dropped altogether, leaving us with død 1007), but these might not meet the specifics of what is required here: If we want to say he died in or before 1007, we can't use før alone, and if we say he died around 1007 that also gives us some leeway beyond 1007. If the website were to state that he died during 1007, that might seem a bit to specific, given that it's not always possible to date events that far in the past accurately (i.e. he could also have died towards the end of 1006). V85 (talk) 16:38, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Problem with Wikipedia fonts

In the article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astarte (just one example), I get boxes instead of characters, which I assume mean that I need a font to render something in an unusual language. Words in Ugaritic, Akkadian, and Etruscan show up as a series of boxes.

Can you help me get these characters to show properly? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.16.99.183 (talk) 07:59, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

You need to have installed some font that includes the relevant range of Unicode. (I can't see them either.) —Tamfang (talk) 08:09, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Some tips and links are available at Help:Multilingual support (though of the three scripts you've specifically mentioned, only in the case of Akkadian does the page link to a downloadable font). Deor (talk) 13:11, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

If you go to article Ishtar you can see the Akkadian name in small images. If you go to Image:Ugaritic-alphabet-chart.svg and scan the ʕ-θ-t-r-t characters in sequence, then you can get an idea of what the Ugaritic would look like. The Etruscan alphabet is kind of quasi-intermediate between the Greek and Roman alphabets, and so is much less exotic than Akkadian or Ugaritic... AnonMoos (talk) 15:20, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

The characters are displaying correctly for me. For Akkadian, you can install this font, for Etruscan and Ugaritic, this font seems to work. - Lindert (talk) 15:44, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions. I tried loading those two fonts, without success. This isn't a major issue, but it would be nice if there were a simple fix for this issue for Wikipedia users. Something like: "Want to show all those weird fonts? Click here to get them all installed." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seidensticker (talk • contribs) 22:31, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Some applications and operating systems simply can't handle things beyond the Basic Multilingual Plane... AnonMoos (talk) 06:33, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Arabic help with two images

Hi! What is the Arabic in the image File:Tizi Ouzou Tasdawit.jpg and in the image File:Kabylia-3lingual sign.jpg? I want to post what the signs say in those languages on the Wikimedia commons.

I would also like to know what the Arabic translations are for "Signs in the University of Tizi Ouzou " and "A multilingual traffic sign in Kabylie (Algeria), depicting Arabic, Tamazight and French."

Thank you WhisperToMe (talk) 16:21, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I can't help with translating into Arabic, but for the first image, the "Faculty of Letters and Humanities" one is: "كلية الاداب و العلوم الإنسانية "; "Auditorium" is " قاعة المحاضرات"; the economics one is "كلية العلوم الإقتصادية" ; "rectorat" is " رئاسة"; and the library is " مكتبة الجامعة". In the second image the Arabic is " بلدية يسر ترحب بكم". Adam Bishop (talk) 18:12, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Adam! I notice that "كلية العلوم الإقتصادية" (for "economics") is the first part of the Arabic in its sign, but there is some Arabic below it too (probably to reflect "et des sciences de Gestion") - Would it be alright if you captured that Arabic as well? Also for "Rectorat" "رئاسة" is the first part, but there is some Arabic after that too WhisperToMe (talk) 18:39, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Oops, sorry, I was having trouble copying and pasting and some of it got deleted. The whole economics one is:

" كلية العلوم الإقتصادية و علوم التسيير"

And the rectorate in full is "university rectorate":

" رئاسة الجامعة"

Hope that works this time. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:42, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Signs in the University...

علامات في جامعة تيزي وزو

A multilingual sign in Kabylie....

علامة متعددة اللغات في منطقة القبائل (الجزائر) باللغة العربية والأمازيغية والفرانسية

Wrad (talk) 22:35, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Adam and Wrad, thank you so much :) ! I added the Arabic to the descriptions and file annotations WhisperToMe (talk) 00:06, 23 September 2012 (UTC)