Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 October 22

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October 22

Were / was?

"If Facebook were a country,..." or "If Facebook was a country,...". Which one is correct? 117.226.219.230 (talk) 08:20, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Under traditional rules, "if" governs the subjunctive mood, so "were" is undoubtedly correct. But most people don't even know what the subjunctive is these days, let alone apply it, so there's a new grammar at work, and most people would use "was". Those who use "were" in that example are in danger of being regarded as old fogies.

Letting the people decide these things seems pretty radical and republican, even revolutionary, to me, I must say. Not like my day, when we were told what to think, what to feel, what to say, what job to do, whom to marry, and how many children to have. It was so much easier that way, really. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 08:37, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Two other things to note: 1) the disappearance of the subjunctive in English is dialectal; the mood is more commonly heard in the US than in Commonwealth English. Not that long ago the Toronto Sun ran "LEST HE FORGETS" as a headline. 2) Even where it is dying out in other ways, it remains in use in fossil phrases such as "if I were you". Marnanel (talk) 09:20, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Under traditional rules, "if" governs the subjunctive in an counter-factual antecedent. In a realis context such as "If I was there, I don't remember it", "was" was normal. --ColinFine (talk) 16:26, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Colin has made the relevant distinction. To put it in layman's terms, you use were to express things that are not factual: "If I were an angel (but I am not) I would have wings." You use was when describing real things in the past, even if you are making a conditional statement: "If it was tuesday afternoon, then I must have been at the dentist when you called."

If you are tempted to use a double "would have" construction, e.g., "If I would have known you were coming, I would have baked a cake", then the first "if" phrase should be in the subjunctive: "Had I known you were coming (but I didn't) I would have baked you a cake." If you can substitute an inverted verb and subject for the if clause, you are using the subjunctive: "If I had known you were coming" > "Had I known you were coming I would have baked you a cake." But not "If it was 1972, I was living in Louisiana" > "Was it 1972, I was living in Louisiana."

The above are instances of the past subjunctive. The present subjunctive is used for things that aren't the case, but which you want to be the case:

Indicative: "I insist that he is here." I.e., he is actually standing behind the door, you just don't see him. Versus:

Subjuntive: "I insist that he be here." I.e., he better be here soon, or I will fire him.

Indicative: "I insist that he speaks English." I.e., he may be a foreigner, but I know for a fact that he's fluent in English, I have heard him. Versus:

Subjuntive: "I insist that he speak English." I.e., I don't care how much he'd prefer to speak Klingon, all employees are required to speak English at work.

μηδείς (talk) 17:03, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the clean examples, Medeis. – b_jonas 18:27, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

TammyMoet reminded me above of The love that dare not speak its name. Is "dare not" a use of the subjunctive, or some peculiarity of the verb "to dare" in third person singular present indicative, the negative of which might normally be expected to be "he/she/it dares not"? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 19:41, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

What always seemed odd to me about that expression is how love has apparently literally developed the power of speech. I can understand figurative speech, like "love speaks to me", but literal ? No. StuRat (talk) 19:48, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

It's first person indicative. The full line is: "I am the Love that dare not speak its name." -- Elphion (talk) 20:57, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Isn't there a disconjunct between using 1st person for the verb, but 3rd person for "its"? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 22:14, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

(ec)When it's used in the third person singular without an -s, and with not after it, it's a modal verb. He dare not works like he must not.

Also, it's not first person,, it's third person. In I am the Love that dare not speak its name., the relative clause has subject that with its antecedent being the immediately preceding Love. It's clear that the antecedent is Love because its (not my) has the same antecedent as that. Duoduoduo (talk) 22:18, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the article on modal verbs seems to cover it. 'Its' does argue for 3rd person too, though 'my' would have worked here too. -- Elphion (talk) 22:44, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, it speaks its name loud and clear these days, in many places. Maybe we can say it is the love that once durst not speak its name. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 23:39, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Don't you dast say that, Tom Sawyer. --Trovatore (talk) 00:04, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes'm. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 02:19, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Re: The sometimes-modal nature of "dare" -- there used to be special contracted negative forms daren't and durstn't... AnonMoos (talk) 01:00, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

I use daren't. Is it meant to be obsolete? Itsmejudith (talk) 06:54, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

It is in U.S. English, at least... AnonMoos (talk) 07:17, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, I daren't contradict you on that. 21:40, 23 October 2012 (UTC) User:Itsmejudith

It may be obsolescent, but it's not yet obsolete. I've heard older Southerners use it. μηδείς (talk) 22:06, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Chinese and Korean help

Hi! What are the Chinese and Korean for "Inscription stone marking the border of China and North Korea in Jilin" (File:Border stone china-corea.jpg)? What is the Korean text displayed? Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 19:44, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

位於吉林省之中國朝鮮邊境石碑 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.70.114.88 (talk) 19:57, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Or in modern Mandarin: 位于吉林省的中朝边境界碑 --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 20:34, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! Now all I need is the Korean WhisperToMe (talk) 20:55, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

expresse

In Quebec French, the word expresse is pronounced /ɛkspʁɛs/ or /ɛkspʁaɛ̯s/ ? Fête (talk) 21:21, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Look it up in a dictionary. Duoduoduo (talk) 22:20, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

I haven't Quebec French dictionary. Fête (talk) 22:38, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry to say that we won't be able to supply you with one, one word at a time. Have you considered responding to the many, many attempts at interaction that people have made with you further up this page? It's very frustrating to deal with a person who makes repeated demands for information, but won't answer questions themselves, or provide clarifications when asked. AlexTiefling (talk) 22:53, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Rather than criticizing, can we not perhaps search for a dictionary for the user? Here is a book at amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Pronunciation-Canadian-French-Douglas-Walker/dp/0776645005 and here are various other resources at Google for French Canadian Pronunciation. Rather than telling Fête to look things up, perhaps we can tell him where? μηδείς (talk) 22:57, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

A fair point. I'm more thinking of the interaction side of using the Reference Desk, rather than the actual answer to the question. More flies with honey and all that. I've only ever been to Quebec on two very brief occasions, and made myself understood with my English schoolboy French. I believe you as both a North American and a more accomplished linguist than I am may have a better idea of where to look for practical help for Fete. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:01, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

I have no special knowledge of French other than four years in a quality secondary school and a good familiarity with Romance in a wider context. I spent 30 minutes looking for godd references, but came across no on line dictionaries with spoken Quebecois pronunciation guides. If I were the OP I would contact a good local University French department. Perhaps we have French speakers and Canadians here with better resources. μηδείς (talk) 01:22, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Here is its pronunciation by a male from Canada. --Omidinist (talk) 05:04, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

That's a great resource. It obviously won't have every possible word. But comparing the recording of expresse to that of bête humaine by the same speaker it is obvious he does have the diphthong for the latter, but not for expresse. μηδείς (talk) 06:26, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

drêche

In Quebec French, the word drêche is pronounced /dʁɛʃ/ or /dʁaɛ̯ʃ/ ? Fête (talk) 13:59, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

It seems you are interested in learning Quebec French, is that right? Do you want to ask about suitable learning programmes, because that would be more efficient than asking us about everything you encounter. Lots of us who respond to you here are learning languages and we don't bring every single question to the board. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:33, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Still, after having had a look at the OP's userpage, he proclaims to have quebecquois at near native-level..and still makes these requests. BTW, he is blocked from FR-wikipedia for 1 month, for the same...let us say sheenanigans. Lectonar (talk) 14:36, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Fete, I've looked at your userpage and contributions. You seem to be interested in pronunciation, but when you don't have a language at native competence, it's not going to be easy for you to make definitive edits on pronunciation in this encyclopedia. It's not helpful to keep coming to this board or to individual editors for help on a one-by-one basis. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:20, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

tête

You hear [tɛːt] or [taɛ̯t] in the file Media:FR-CA-tête.oga ? Fête (talk) 18:48, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

How many times do you plan to ask essentially the same question? —Tamfang (talk) 20:05, 25 October 2012 (UTC)