Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 September 2

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September 2

Question about term

Hello Refdeskers, I would like to inquire whether a specific term exists for the following condition: A person travels to a foreign country, the language of which they neither know nor understand. This person is thus stunned that the locals are able to understand each other. They wonder how they can communicate, since (subjectively to them) the language is incomprehensible. Is there a name for this? This is curiosity working! Cheers, Ouro (blah blah) 07:20, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Ethnocentrism? rʨanaɢ (talk) 07:31, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

"Being British" 217.18.23.2 (talk) 09:48, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

No, that would involve saying things slowly and VERY LOUDLY. I wouldn't consider amazement that another culture can understand each other a particularly common trait anywhere. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 09:50, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, there's sort of a common joke involving American tourists in France (which probably work for any X tourists in country Y) expressing amazement at how well even the little children can speak French. But I haven't heard of this amazement existing in the real world (outside of jokes). Angr (talk) 10:02, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, I have seen it, hence my question. I was unsure whether this had any name, and now I am starting to believe that indeed it might not have one. --Ouro (blah blah) 12:51, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

"Utter inanity"? — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 13:44, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't know but whoever uttered that must have been incredibly stupid. --Belchman (talk) 16:25, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Ouro -- If you were to ask me to coin a term, "Naive ethnolinguicentrism" would probably work (though it's definitely not standard or accepted usage)... AnonMoos (talk) 23:45, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Hauling ass

I used to work with a bunch of Americans in France and one weekend we took a trip by TGV. Some way into the journey, I head one of my friends remark "this thing is really hauling ass". That got me thinking about the origin of the term 'hauling ass' as an expression for something moving fast. 'Hauling' suggests you are struggling to pull a heavy load, and whether that is human buttocks or the horse-like animal it would suggest a slower motion rather then faster. So what is the origin of the term 'hauling ass'? Astronaut (talk) 11:15, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

We often use the word 'ass' as a mildly vulgar substitute for 'self' – like in "Get your ass over here and get to work". Extending it to "hauling" your self/ass would mean you are exerting more effort to move. I don't get the same connotation of "slower motion" as you do. —Akrabbim^talk 12:18, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Originaly, "Haulling ass" has meant: pushing fast a heavy load, i.e. the expression has originally meant that the stuff succeeds to push (to haul) like an ass, what a human being would barely haul. Using the "ass" here, is beacuse an ass pushes (hauls) faster than a human being does; Hence, the whole expression was originally intended to mean: pushing fast a heavy load. HOOTmag (talk) 12:42, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

HOOTmag, do you have any evidence for that theory? --Colapeninsula (talk) 13:23, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

The OED's first citation is a book of US navy slang from 1918, but they don't give any origin. I thought it might derive from "haul your ass", but Google Books has hits for "haul ass" from the 1930s but nothing for "haul my/his/your ass" till the 1940s; however this is not conclusive evidence, as slang tends not to be well-recorded in writing. It might also relate to "kick ass", though the OED dates that phrase to 1977, and the earliest I can find on Google Books is 1969. --Colapeninsula (talk) 13:39, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

The OED also dates "ass" in the sense of person to 1958 (e.g. "kill my ass"). And there's a sense "Used casually in various phrases as an intensifier, esp. to indicate strength of feeling, action, etc.: to work (run, etc.) one's ass off; to chew ass, to reprimand severely; to tear ass, to move fast, to hurry" which has a first citation in 1946. Yet "haul ass" precedes them all. I'm at a loss to find any origin for the phrase "haul ass". --Colapeninsula (talk) 13:44, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

In American slang ass usually refers to the buttocks, occasionally to female genitalia, and seldom to donkeys (except in expressions like "don't be an ass" or "stupid ass"). The American ass is generally equivalent to the British arse. Note that the buttocks are the muscles that do most of the work in human locomotion. It's easy to see how hauling ass could mean really working the buttocks, as in a run or a vigorous hike. Marco polo (talk) 14:02, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

I have never heard ass used in relation to female genitalia.--108.46.107.181 (talk) 14:08, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

I am thinking of expressions like "a piece of ass" or "I need to get some ass", expressions almost invariably used by heterosexual men. Marco polo (talk) 14:21, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Oh. I wouldn't characterize those expressions as specifoc tp female genitalia at all but to sex in general. In fact, if someone said that and was a gay male, I don't think anyone would say, you can't say that, because there's no vagina involved. It would just mean to have (or obtain) sex.--108.46.107.181 (talk) 14:26, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

I may be mistaken, but I don't think the "ass" in "a piece of ass" specifically means genitalia. Rather, as the buttocks are also considered to be a sexual characteristic (e.g. My Humps, Baby Got Back, Honky Tonk Badonkadonk), I believe it's rather a synecdoche referring to a sexually attractive person. -- 174.24.197.132 (talk) 15:23, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

You are probably right, and I've probably been misinterpreting that word all these years. Incidentally, as a gay man, I've never heard another gay man use any of those expressions; they are pretty much exclusively used by straight men in my experience, hence my assumption that they must refer to female genitalia. Marco polo (talk) 15:28, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Another observation about the verb haul. While we now associate the verb with carrying heavy loads, it was once mainly used to refer to manually pulling ropes, such as halyards and fishing nets. This kind of hauling was usually done with quick and vigorous motion. Marco polo (talk) 14:21, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm not the OP, and I don't want to derail the discussion above, but I do wonder about the related phrase shag ass, used frequently in the show Supernatural (TV show), making me giggle every time. The actual intended meaning is clear from context, but it is an extremely peculiar phrase that I can't really deconstruct (except for the giggly meaning in British English). 86.164.62.111 (talk) 22:08, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Translation of 18th-century Danish text

A broadside printed on the occasion of Queen Caroline Mathilde's arrival in Copenhagen on 8 November 1766

Would anyone like to try their hand at translating the 18th-century Danish text for the file description page of this image? — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 13:35, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Well no, but I would think the word "broadside" should properly read "broadsheet". --TammyMoet (talk) 13:54, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Google Translate (OK, not the best source) translates the Danish flyveblad as broadside, and I note that Wiktionary defines a broadside as "A large sheet of paper, printed on one side and folded". But you may well be right. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 13:59, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

I am the original uploader of the picture, and it is nice to see my typo in the name corrected. I have added a Danish transcription as well as an English translation of the text. Generally speaking it is mainly royalist fluffery steeped in rococco language. Some terms are not easily translated, and it doesn't help that it is apparently in verse, each sentence being a fixed number of syllables and there is rhyming as well. Feel free to move it if it is malplaced, I am not well versed in the new commons template. --Saddhiyama (talk) 15:32, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Also in this context broadside and broadsheet is synonymous. --Saddhiyama (talk) 15:38, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

That's great! Thanks. (Now all we need is a poet to get the English translation to fit the meter and the AABBCCDD rhyming scheme ... ;-)) — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 15:53, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Despite what dictionaries may say, I'd prefer broadsheet because of the other meaning of broadside, a form of naval attack (and hence, in metaphor, a rhetorical attack – inappropriate to the context!). —Tamfang (talk) 04:08, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

And I would prefer broadside because that is the historical term more familiar to me for the meaning, and the other meaning of broadsheet - a large format of newspaper - brings in inappropriate connotations, because until the last decade or so it implied quality papers as opposed to the tabloids. --ColinFine (talk) 22:06, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

 Done. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 11:05, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Ok, while we're waiting for the poet, I'll try making a rough translation. Here's my transcription of the original text:

Afbildning paa det høytidelige og for alle troe Undersaatter høystglædelige Syn, da vor allernaadigste Dronning Karolina Mathilda holdt sit Indtog i den kongelige Residentz-Stad København den 8 November Ao 1766.

Kom, see, o Landsmand! see et Syn, som kand indtage'
Vor Dronnings Majestet, Vor Konges Engle-Mage
Sit indtog holder nu til Kongens Christiansborg,
Hvorfra forsvunden er den gamle mørke Sorg
O see, hvor Hjertets Fryd gør(?) Ansigterne milde.
Ved dette Engle-Syn, at Carolin' Mathilde
Benaader København med sin Nærværelse
Og bringer Liv og Lyst til Undersaatterne

O glæd dig, Dannemark ved din fuldkomne Lykke!
O Norge' (som/kom?) til hjelp vor Glæde at udtrykke
See Kongens Hus, og syng om Nordens Lykkes Plan
Fra Engelland til os kun Engle komme kan'
Vort Vivat klinge skal i Dag og alle Dage'
Vivat Kong Christian! Vivat hans Engle-Mage;
Gud legge Styrke til saa høyt og helligt Baand
Som bundet er til Trøst for os af Guddoms Haand

To avoid changing the meaning, I'm translating mostly word-by-word. The result is of course ungrammatical in English, but hopefully comprehensible. I was puzzled by the term "Engle-mage", but found it used and explained here.

Depiction of the solemn and for all true Subjects most-joyful Sight, when our most-gracious Queen Karolina Mathilda made her Entry to the royal City of Residence Copenhagen the 8th of November Anno 1766.

Come, see Compatriot, see a Sight that can captivate
Our Queen's Majesty, our King's Angelic Partner
Her Entry makes now to the King's Christiansborg,
Wherefrom disappeared is the old dark Sorrow
O see, where the Heart's Joy makes Faces mild.
By this Angelic Sight, that Carolin' Mathilde
Graces Copenhagen by her Presence
And brings Life and Happiness to her Subjects

O rejoice, Denmark, in your perfect Happiness!
O Norway, help us our Joy to express(?)
See the Kings House, and sing of Norden's [=the Nordic region's] Happiness' Plan
From England to us only Angels come can
Our Vivat resound shall today and all Days
Vivat King Christian! Vivat his Angelic Partner!
[May] God put Strength into such a high and holy Bond
That tied is to Comfort for us by Divine Hand.

--NorwegianBlue ^talk 10:03, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Multilingual list of Indian kin terms

Are all the translations in Multilingual list of Indian kin terms correct?
—Wavelength (talk) 14:49, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Arguement

What is it called when you say something is going to happen in an arguement so others cant say it wthout I told you so being used? Mo ainm~Talk 18:12, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Poisoning the well? --Jayron32 18:16, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Also known as pre-empting. (I note that nobody ever empts, or even post-empts; they only pre-empt.) -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 21:32, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Out of curiosity I looked up the etymology of this. It turns out that "pre-empt" derives from "pre-emption", and "emption" is an archaic term for making a purchase -- so "pre-emption" means purchasing something before somebody else can. Obviously "post-emption" would not make any sense here. Looie496 (talk) 15:01, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't call it poisoning the well, since the "prediction" seems to be a comment on the argument itself rather than some ad hominem attack, unless of course the person used this "prediction" as a direct attack on the personality of the other. I'd equate it to a mild form of peace and conflict studies, when used in an attempt to difuse an argument. ~AH1 ^(discuss!) 21:49, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Just a note to the thread poster. There's no "e" in the middle of argument. I can certainly understand the source of this error: Argue ends in "e", and for most words that a suffix is added to, if the suffix begins with a consonant, then the "e" is usually retained (the opposite is generally true when the suffix begins with a vowel). I wouldn't normally write a post like this but this is the language reference desk, after all. By the way, if anyone feels the need to dress me down for the preposition use in the past sentence, I'll have you know that that is the sort of English rule up with which I will not put.--108.46.107.181 (talk) 22:28, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

". . . will not put" or ". . . shall not put"? See Shall and will. :-) . {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.193.78.7 (talk) 17:00, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

"Will" is correct there, mainly because it's a quotation (usually attributed to Winston Churchill), but also also because it's about the speaker's desire (or willingness) not to put up with imaginary rules, rather than just a statement of his future behaviour. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 09:39, 5 September 2011 (UTC)