Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 March 25

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March 25

Names for "second" and "minute" (units of time)

I am wondering about names for the "second" (the unit of time) in various languages. It seems that either:

1. the word for "second" is a loanword or
2. the word for "second" is derived from a word meaning "second" in the sense of "the first but one", or a phrase meaning "second part" (with a minute being the "first part" in this reckoning).

To me, this seems a bit strange. At least intuitively to me, it seems absurd to think of a second as a small subdivision of an hour (as implied by the words) rather than to think of an hour as an aggregate of seconds. Enough can happen in a few seconds, or even in a single second, that the interval is clearly not any kind of subdivision. Are there any counterexamples to my hypothesis? Perhaps the Chinese character "秒" will do, but I am not sure: at least in Japanese, this character can also mean an arcsecond. What is the etymology of this character, anyway?

Also, I am wondering about the word for "minute" in various languages as well. Where it is not a simple loanword, does it always mean a part or a piece of something etymologically? What surprises me is that I have never seen a root meaning "sixty" or "a sixtieth part" here, even though it is in terms of such that a minute is best described. Anyone adding hours on a timesheet knows exactly what I mean.

75.44.12.112 (talk) 07:02, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I believe that they did start as divisions of an hour, with "first" = minute, "second" = second, "third" = 1/60th second, and "fourth" = 1/60th of a "third". (I'm not sure why a second retained it's name but not a "first"/minute.) To understand why the hour was the primary unit, you have to understand that long ago, very few things had to be timed by the second, while many things were timed in hours. For example, if two people were going to meet, it would be set for a certain hour (as it often is today). Also, before clocks, a sundial could measure hours, but not seconds. See hour, minute, second, and units of time. StuRat (talk) 07:28, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't think a minute was ever referred to as a "first" - that's a sort of backronym. I think the sequence is: you have your unit (hour, degree, whatever). You find it convenient to divide it up in to little bits, which you call "minutes" (meaning "small" - the factor of sixty is not part of the meaning, but just what the Sumerian astronomers found natural). Later you find you want to subdivide minutes, so you invent a "second" division, and a "third".

I agree that it is interesting that these words are generally loan-translated, rather than, say substituting a word meaning "sixtieth". I don't know why that should be, except to note that terms of science and technology are often either borrowed or loan-translated. I'm thinking of German "Sauerstoff" and "Wasserstoff", which translate the "oxy-" and "hydro-" from the Greek roots of "oxygen" and "hydrogen". --ColinFine (talk) 08:34, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, if you look at the etymology of "second" [1], you see that it derives from the Latin for "secunda pars minuta (“second diminished part (of the hour)”)". When humans started keeping track of time, there really wasn't any way to measure times shorter than a day accurately. Probably the first tool that allowed you to do that was the sundial, which in practical use is only accurate to about an hour (etymology: "a period of time" [2]). When mechanical clocks were made, a finer subdivision of an hour were now possible, so the "minute" (from minūta [3] ("diminished" [4]) akin to minute/"small") was added. When clocks got really accurate, the second minute was added. Since even the second was probably more accurate than most humans need for day-to-day usage, it stopped there. -- 174.21.235.112 (talk) 16:39, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

"Second" is indeed the second fractional part of an hour, using sexagesimal fractions. An obscure word for 1/60 of a second is tierce. Although the first part may not ever have been called "first", according to our article, it was once called primus.

Also of interest is that, once upon a time, these fractional parts were indicated by roman-numeral superscripts -- that is, what we now write as 12:34:56 was once transcribed as 12 34^I 56^II. Over time the roman numerals evolved to single and double primes and/or quote marks, which are still used today for minutes and seconds of a degree: 12°34'56". (And also for feet and inches; dunno how that happened.) —Steve Summit (talk) 10:20, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Does that mean the degree sign ° started out as a superscript zero? Pais (talk) 16:44, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

The article ° confirms that. --Wrongfilter (talk) 17:28, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Everyday usage of Standard German in Germany

What German city uses the closest to Standard German variety in everyday usage nowadays? --Belchman (talk) 12:56, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I think Hanover has that reputation, but I can't vouch for the accuracy of the claim. Pais (talk) 13:00, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Its without direct reference, but de:Standarddeutsch calls the region around Hannover the one with the "best" Standard German, in accordance with my forespeaker. --129.206.196.211 (talk) 13:03, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

That article also says that until the 20th century, the best Standard German was spoken in Prague. Pais (talk) 16:51, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Hanover and the former Low German-speaking areas in general, because they esentially learned Standard German as a foreign language and weren't influenced by local dialects. "You write it, we read it" goes the quip, since Standard German evolved as a written language not based on a specific local High German variety. 80.123.210.172 (talk) 17:22, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I can confirm that Hanover has that reputation, although it's not completely pure Standard German either. The most obvious difference is that syllable-initial st or sp is pronounced essentially as in English (a general feature of northern forms of German), whereas in Standard German it is pronounced sht or shp the way everybody in the south does. I think they also tend to use idioms that are either local or antiquated, such as "das ist nicht an dem". Hanover German sounds affected to me (from the south) in a way that Standard German as used by the broadcasters never does. I think this may have something to do with vowel quality, but I am no expert. Hans Adler 17:42, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I know several people from Hanover, Braunschweig, and Salzgitter, and not one of them ßtolpert über ßpitze ßteine, as the saying goes (i.e. pronounces initial sp and st as [sp st] rather than [ʃp ʃt]). That's a characteristic of much further north: Hamburg, Lübeck, and Kiel. It's true that the grammar is not always 100% as Duden prescribes (e.g. das ist meinem Vater sein Wagen or damals wie ich ein Kind war or da hab ich Angst vor), but as far as pronunciation goes, I think it's as close as you're going to get in any colloquial local accent of German. On the other hand, I'm not sure how widespread the pronunciation of word-final g as [x] with concomitant shortening of the preceding vowel is; maybe Hanoverians do say [tax] for Tag and [tsʊx] for Zug instead of [taːk] and [tsuːk]. —Angr (talk) 22:57, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I think it depends on the person's level of education or social awareness or whatever: you hear both in Hannöversch. Various examples with the sp/st-pronunciation (and others with the schp/scht variety) can be heard at Wir sind Hannoveraner (see also here). You can hear parodists Siggi and Raner and the crowd singing both "spricht" and "schpricht" in this clip too, e.g. ---Sluzzelin talk 23:07, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

German: -ess like in 'Delikatess'

I know that -ess is a suffix, and therefore 'Delikatess' does not mean "delicated food". Which other German words end with -ess? Quest09 (talk) 17:52, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

The German word is Delikatesse, not Delikatess. It is derived from the French délicatesse, meaning "delicacy". Marco polo (talk) 18:02, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Um, I always thought the word was Delikatessen, deriving from essen, which is German for eating. Looie496 (talk) 18:05, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Looking at the etymology, I think this is a sort of interlinguistic pun. In French -esse is a suffix, and délicatesse does mean "delicateness". But to a German, the word looks like "Delikat + esse", which translates as "fine food". In any case, "-esse" is not a standard suffix in German. Looie496 (talk) 18:12, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

It's not a pun that anyone would recognise unless you specifically draw attention to it by making it the punchline of a joke, for example. Delikatessen is simply the regular plural of Delikatesse, which is from French delicatesse and is in no way related to essen. Hans Adler 18:14, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I see that our delicatessen article actually explains this. Looie496 (talk) 18:29, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I would be surprised to learn that a suffix -ess exists in German. Delikatess (without the e) normally only appears in composite words such as Delikatess-Wurst. It doesn't really follow any regular pattern that I am aware of, and looks to me like 19th century marketing speak that has become part of the standard language. Hans Adler 18:14, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Maybe, then, the suffix is original from French only. But, do other loan French words with the same French suffix exist in German? Quest09 (talk) 18:19, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Of course: Petitesse, Finesse, Raffinesse, Mätresse, Noblesse. There are also words of Latin origin that do end in -ess, such as Abszess, Rezess, Prozess. Hans Adler 18:25, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

In the latter three cases, -ess is not a suffix, of course. If I'm not mistaken, Stewardess, Hostess(e), Baroness, Komtess all use a (originally) French diminutive suffix as a female gender marker (as does Mätresse). Tristesse goes along with Petitesse, Delikatesse and the like. --Jonas kork (talk) 19:27, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Although the plural of Delikatesse "delicacy" and a hypothetical compound Delikat-Essen ("delicate food(s)") would be spelled the same, they wouldn't be pronounced the same. Delikatessen as the plural of Delikatesse is [delikaˈtɛsn̩], while the compound Delikat-Essen would be [deliˈkatˌʔɛsn̩], with stress on a different syllable and a glottal stop between the t and the e. So the pronunciation assures us that the source of English delicatessen is the German plural of Delikatesse, borrowed from French délicatesse, not a compound of delikat and Essen. —Angr (talk) 22:43, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Correct Latin Quote

Made an edit on the Horace talk page earlier today before remembering this could probably help me more. I need someone who speaks Latin. I was told that Horace once said this quote: "Lusisti satis, edisti satis atque bibisti; tempus abire tibi est". The translation is meant to be "You've played enough, you've eaten and drunk enough; it's time for you to go away." I need to know if the Latin is completely sound though. It's pretty important to me and any help would be greatly appreciated. --81.129.208.128 (talk) 23:01, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

The original can be found here, lines 214 and 215. --Wrongfilter (talk) 00:32, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

In case there's any confusion, the quotation comes at lines 214-215 of the second poem in Wrongfilter's link. You've quoted Horace's Latin correctly, and the translation is accurate as well. --Antiquary (talk) 19:27, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much. You've helped me a lot. It was for my grandmother's funeral tomorrow and I wanted to get it perfect. --86.137.116.241 (talk) 14:18, 28 March 2011 (UTC)