Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 March 20

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March 20

Strange or unique verbs

What are some very strange or unique verbs in Spanish and French? I don't mean necessarily extremely irregular (like être/aller ; ser/ir), but verbs that exhibit strange features. To give you an idea: the apostrophe is a part of the (single) verb in French entr'ouvrir (or was before the advent of Newspeak 1990 spelling reforms); s'asseoir has at least three complete and distinct ways of conjugation in the present indicative. 72.128.95.0 (talk) 02:06, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

One category is defective verbs, which lack certain tenses or persons in their conjugations. An interesting example in French is gésir, which is rarely used except in the phrase "ci-gît", "here lies", although authors sometimes try to resurrect or invent other forms, e.g. "je gésirai" or "je gîrai", "I will lie".[1] Lesgles (talk) 14:35, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Entr'ouvrir is not the unique verb with an apostrophe: entr'apercevoir, entr'apparaître, entr'appeler, entr'égorger, entr'aimer. — AldoSyrt (talk) 09:01, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

The French verb créer has the feminine past participle form créée. Of interest is wikt:Category:French defective verbs. —Internoob (Talk · Cont · Wikt) 23:33, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I have just discovered this! The French verb paître is defective. The past participle and the compound tenses of this verb are used only in Falconry! Paître un oiseau is "to feed a bird". — AldoSyrt (talk) 09:23, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Greek, Hindi, Russian, Punjabi, and Serbian help

http://www.peelschools.org/greek/home/ has the Greek name of the Peel District School Board, and http://www.peelschools.org/russian/home/ has the Russian, http://www.peelschools.org/hindi/home/ has the Hindi, and http://www.peelschools.org/punjabi/home/ has the Punjabi

How are the names typed?

I want to add the names to Talk:Peel_District_School_Board#Other_languages

And does http://www.peelschools.org/serbian/home/ have a distinct name for the "Peel District School Board"?

Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 05:44, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I think "Το Σχολικο Συμβούλιο της Επαρχιας του Peel" is the Greek. "Peel" is not transliterated, and since that page always says "welcome to..." or "in the...", I might have gotten the declensions wrong. Adam Bishop (talk) 09:19, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

The Russian is "Школьныӥ Совет Раӥона Пил", but I know nothing about Russian grammar, so the first word is probably declined somehow after the preposition "в" (it also begins "welcome to..." Adam Bishop (talk) 09:35, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

No, "Школьныӥ Совет" is the accusative singular after "в", which happens to be identical to the nominative for a masculine noun and adjective. (I believe the same is true for the Greek, as it happens, though that one is neuter rather than masculine). Incidentally, "совет" is the word "soviet", which means "council". --ColinFine (talk) 10:04, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

The Hindi doesn't translate/transliterate the name at all. I'm pretty sure the Hindi just says "You are welcome (in)to" ("men apka svagata hain", I think). Similarly the Serbian: "Dobro došli u" = "Welcome to".

I must say that I'm puzzled why you think this effort is worthwhile. What's the point of filling the talk page with translations which will either never be referred to, or else will be used by people who are probably more proficient at the relevant language than you are? --ColinFine (talk) 10:14, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

1. Those translations are going to the Commons as soon as I can find a good picture of a facility of the PDSB - I wish to create an image category for the PDSB, and then state the different language names of the district in that category (Example: Commons:Category:Toronto District School Board)

2. Those are destination names for any possible Wikipedia articles about this district in other languages. Because this district has a parent/student base which speaks many languages, it would be worthwhile for Wikipedias of other languages to have entries on this school district.

WhisperToMe (talk) 15:05, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Certainly it would be; but if somebody chooses to make an article about it in Hindi or Serbian, aren't they going to be more proficient in the language than you, or me? But maybe the Commons reason is a good one. --ColinFine (talk) 21:10, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Typically what I do for languages like Hindi and Serbian is that once I get the name of the school district, then I go to the local language Wiki and post at the Embassy or on an interested party's talk page and ask for a request to make a stub, and state "please post the article at XXXX". - If the language(s) is/are French, Spanish, and/or Chinese I try to make a stub myself, and hope that a person who is more proficient will expand the stub. I link to the stub from relevant pages so the stub is visible.

WhisperToMe (talk) 21:29, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Added Serbian and Croatian [2]. As in Russian, the accusative case is the same as nominative. No such user (talk) 10:00, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I made a minor correction to the talk page - the Russian letter Й is different from the Udmurt letter Ӥ. --Theurgist (talk) 05:22, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Ah! Thank you very much :) WhisperToMe (talk) 16:34, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

The Hindi name is पील डिस्ट्रिक्ट स्कूल बोर्ड, written in parenthesis after the english name. --Soman (talk) 18:39, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Aha, so there is a Hindi name. Thank you very much :) WhisperToMe (talk) 18:54, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

deutsch grammatik

wo kann man einen kaffee trinken? Plz answer the question without any grammaticall mistake. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Datarka5 (talk • contribs) 06:50, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Technically, the question itself has a grammatical mistake. JIP | Talk 10:10, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misinterpretation, but it is our policy here not to do people's homework for them, but to merely aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn nearly as much as doing it yourself. Please attempt to solve the problem or answer the question yourself first. If you need help with a specific part of your homework, feel free to tell us where you are stuck and ask for help. If you need help grasping the concept of a problem, by all means let us know. --ColinFine (talk) 10:23, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Google Translate says the sentence is asking, "Where can you drink a coffee?" There's more than one possible answer to that question, regardless of language. Does the OP want a series of possible answers, or is he looking for a specific answer to be translated back to German? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:54, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

If this is a homework question there is an answer which translates as "you can drink coffee in a coffee house". He should be able to sort his answer out from that. --TammyMoet (talk) 17:01, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Or "drink cafe in a cafe", as it were. But you can drink coffee most anywhere that doesn't have a sign saying "no food or drink allowed on premises." My answer would have been aus einer Kaffeetasse, or something like that. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:08, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

That would be the answer to "Woraus kann man Kaffee trinken?" So it probably won't impress the OP's German teacher. ---Sluzzelin talk 17:48, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Isn't it great when the first respondent says the question is being regarded as homework and we're not going to answer it, and then the next respondent ignores that and just comes out with an answer. That's a really fine example of the collegiate spirit at work. Not. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 18:42, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

The question has not actually been answered, since we don't know for sure what the answer is supposed to be. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:52, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

That evades the point entirely, Bugs. It doesn't matter a tinker's cuss what the OP wants. It's a homework question and so we shouldn't be providing ANY answer. Period. Unless they come back with evidence they've made an attempt, or evidence it's not homework - neither of which has happened here. Otherwise, we may as well just tear up all the instructions at the top. Just because OPs routinely ignore them does not mean respondents should. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 19:15, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Then box up the section and be done with it. Did it ever occur to you that someone else might be interested in the question? I've asked a followup question that has still not been answered to my satisfaction. Is there a German language subtlety that somehow forces the answer to be "in a cafe"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:27, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

There is not; I expect the question was meant to test the use of prepositions with the indefinite article, or perhaps word order, so that any logical answer (café, kitchen, etc.) with the correct grammar would satisfy. Lesgles (talk) 19:37, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I see. Well, the OP hasn't been back. Should this section be boxed, or maybe deleted? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→

Delete your own posts if you must. But do not delete anything I've written. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 19:58, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

• I'm not surprised that the OP hasn't come back. Textbook eample of "how to bite the newbies". First response is to attack the question, and that's followed by the usual ABF about anything that might possibly be a homework question, and demands the questioner proves his innocence. Still, I suppose the OP got an accurate picture of the Wikipedia community - a bunch of grumpy, suspicious, snide misanthropes. DuncanHill (talk) 20:09, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
  • Along with attacking other editors in full view of the OP, which also adds to that picture. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:14, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
  • (ec) The question was hardly from the Parnassus of Good English, yet it was demanding we provide an error-free answer. That was well worth noting. It also strongly suggested the answer is needed for a homework assignment. We have a rule (remember "rules") that we do not do OP's homework for them. It's nothing to do with assuming bad faith. Colin Fine welcomed the OP, while also advising that we have a rule about not answering homework questions. It was all fine up to that point. Nothing grumpy or misanthropic about any of that. Then Baseball Bugs ignored the rule and provided an answer anyway. His thing about other people being interested in the answer too, is an incredibly silly smokescreen. Like, we can provide answers that are visible to the whole world, but invisible to the OP? Hmmmm. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:19, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

(ec)The question appears to me to be from someone for whom English is not the first language. It's also the first post by a new user, which ought (but here never does) earn someone a little kindness (remember "kindness" Jack?). The very first response was an attack on the question - which might be "fine" to you Jack but strikes me as low. The template used by Colin is a blatant assumption of bad faith. Not one of you though it worth helping our OP by giving them a welcome box - I suppose none of you can see a redlinked talk page when it's staring you in the face, or maybe you just don't think it's worth trying to help new editors? DuncanHill (talk)

I'm really struggling with your defence of this, Duncan. Colin used the standard wording given to anyone who comes here asking what appears to be a homework question. I don't know who worked out the set of words, but they seem perfectly fine to me. It starts with a friendly "welcome". Then "Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misinterpretation .." That is hardly an assumption of "bad faith". It's an assessment based on the evidence before us. It's not saying the OP is an evil person or has done a bad thing or anything remotely like that. It's simply advising them that we have a long-standing policy in these sorts of cases, and why. An apology in the event our assessment is flawed, is also not my idea of impropriety or unkindness, but exactly the opposite. The OP has had every opportunity to come back and respond, to correct Colin's misinterpretation, if indeed it was a misinterpretation. They have chosen not to do so. That's where the matter should have rested. Duncan, if you have any issue with us ever using the standard wording that Colin used in the first response to the OP, then please take it up in the appropriate forum. If you don't want to do that, then please do not criticise it piecemeal as an example of "unkindness". -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 22:15, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

As soon as that template gets used, some people seems to stop thinking for themselves - you criticised those who seemed to think it acceptable to answer, and you demanded the OP prove himself innocent before anyone answer him. Questioners should not be expected to prove themselves worthy of our attention - if you don't want to try to help someone then fine, just don't do it. Instead you ask someone to prove a negative, and have a go at those who do try to help. You assumed bad faith of the OP, and you assumed bad faith of those who tried to answer, accusing them of lacking collegiate spirit. You really ought to take a step back and look at yourself. DuncanHill (talk) 22:48, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

High time this went to the talk page. See you there. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 00:33, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Any simple and short answer will follow the subsequent scheme: In (that is the most frequently used preposition) + einem / einer / einem (that is the indefinite article, masculine, feminine or neuter) + Lokus (that is a placeholder for the actual location, the gender of which must correspond to the preceding article). The location must be in the Dative case. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:29, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

PS: It is possible that your teacher expects you to repeat the kernel of the question when answering. If you omit this kernel then the sentence lacks a subject and a verb. So, a "proper" answer would be: Man kann einen Kaffee <insert fragment as per above guidelines> trinken. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:39, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Well I am sorry if what I did offended anyone, but I fail to see how giving someone a pointer which may be of use to them is "doing their homework for them". Surely it's the least we can do? --TammyMoet (talk) 21:39, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Traditional Chinese help

I am trying to get the Chinese title of the document from page 1, but the characters become funny when pasted from this PDF

The document is at http://www.houstonisd.org/HISDConnectEnglish/Images/PDF/howmaywehelpyou.pdf

I am trying to post the name of the document since it is a source cited at zh:休斯顿独立学区

Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 23:19, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

歡迎您加入休士頓獨立學區　我們怎麼樣來協助您? Oda Mari (talk) 05:39, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much! WhisperToMe (talk) 22:02, 21 March 2011 (UTC)