Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 March 3

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March 3

Pluralization

"The best guide clinically for the proper interproximal bony architecture seems to be the interproximal configuration of the cementoenamel junction of the adjacent teeth."

I recognize that the jargon may throw one off, but should either or both of the underlined nouns be pluralized, seeing how they are anatomical landmarks of the adjacent teeth. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 01:18, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Probably not. The dentist is presumbaly interested in one particular bit of the bone, which will be characterized by the configuration (singular) of one particular gap (singular) between the (two) teeth adjacent to the bone in question. On the other hand, if the sentence as a whole refers to the entire bone structure of the jaw, it would probably be better as "the interproximal configuration [still singular] of the cementoenamel junctions [plural] of adjacent teeth [no "the"]." Tevildo (talk) 22:44, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Russian Runes

An earlier rune-like and possibly syllabic script was simultaneously discarded, and so thoroughly discouraged that today there are no uncontested specimens of it in existence.

What are the contested specimens?174.3.99.176 (talk) 01:43, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Presumably you are asking about the Glagolitic alphabet? Marco polo (talk) 03:01, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

The Glagolitic alphabet is not what would commonly be called "runes". In the specific sense, the word "runes" refers to the old Germanic futhark and its offshoots. In a general sense, the term refers to various writing systems which were used predominantly by scratching or incising a material, so that the letters of such alphabets consist almost entirely of constant-width straight line segments joined by angles (with few or no curves). AnonMoos (talk) 07:39, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Nothing about that sentence applied to Glagolitic, which is a well-known alphabet which is still occasionally used for monuments etc (I saw a modern inscription in Glagolitic script in Zagreb in 1986 - in the Cathedral, I think). I have never heard of such a script: I wonder if whoever wrote it was thinking of Turkic runes?

If nobody comes forward with any more information I propose that the sentence be deleted from the article. --ColinFine (talk) 13:46, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Re: Croatian use of Glaogolitic: indeed, an entire wall in the Zagreb Cathedral is taken up by a gargantuan Glagolitic inscription - quite literally a wall of text :). Glagolitic is also featured on the 100 Croatian kuna banknote - our article informs me that the inscription on the banknote is from the Baška tablet. Glagolitic is far from completely out of documented existence. TomorrowTime (talk) 08:31, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Colin, I object to you deleting the sentence.20:57, 3 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.3.99.176 (talk • contribs) 20:57, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Why? You have to give a convincing reason, not just say "I object".—Emil J. 11:26, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

You cannot disprove that these runes do exist.174.3.110.108 (talk) 20:48, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

What does that mean? Writing systems that are direct precursors to Russian Cyrillic are not validly called "runes", as was explained above, and you don't seem to understand the point of Wikipedia sourcing policies... AnonMoos (talk) 07:19, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

No, that sentence was not referring to Glagolitic. It was referring to this article: Pre-Christian Slavic writing. 128.135.222.164 (talk) 01:02, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

What it means is that the sentence in the piped link, may be unrelated to Cyrillic, although it is earlier.174.3.110.108 (talk)

[I am revising the section heading to make it more informative of the topic of the question. -- Wavelength (talk) 01:50, 3 March 2010 (UTC)]

[I am removing the "small" codes because this information deserves equal prominence with the other comments. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:40, 3 March 2010 (UTC)]

Modern reforms of Russian Runes

Attempted further simplifications in the early 1960s and late 1990s were met with public protest and were not implemented.

What were these proposals?174.3.99.176 (talk) 01:53, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

The Cyrillic alphabet is really really not an example of "runes" (see comment in subsection above). AnonMoos (talk) 07:39, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't think these reforms regard runes.174.3.110.108 (talk) 20:49, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

[I am revising the section heading to make it more informative of the topic of the question. See Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#Editing comments (permanent link here), sub-subsection "Others' comments", point 12 of 18. I also point out to everyone that the sentence quoted can be found in paragraph 6 of the linked article. -- Wavelength (talk) 03:04, 3 March 2010 (UTC)]

[I am revising the section heading, because there was an edit conflict, and I forgot to redo it. -- Wavelength (talk) 03:06, 3 March 2010 (UTC)]

[I am removing the "small" codes because this information deserves equal prominence with the other comments here.

-- Wavelength (talk) 14:59, 3 March 2010 (UTC)]

how offensive is the word "Paki" in UK compared to "nigger" in USA?

I was on facebook and it look like South Asians embrace the term... perhaps ironically? I am confused. Either way, I won't go around calling people "paki" but I would love to know just how naughty it is in the spectrum of racial slurs.---- —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk • contribs)

It is generally considered highly offensive in the UK - this article provides some useful background, and there was widespread outrage when Prince Harry used the word - see this. Historically (back to the 1950s or so) the word was always used in a derogatory sense. It may be true that some people of Asian origin now embrace the term within their own community - but in general use it is always offensive. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:06, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, both that it is highly offensive, and that it is being reclaimed. The Oxford English Dictionary says it is "slang (usu. derogatory and offensive). orig. and chiefly Brit." The earliest citation is 1964, and I would categorise that example sentence as dismissive rather than overtly hostile. To what extent it has become a reclaimed word within the community to which it refers, that is another question. A couple of the OED citations stand out:

1987 Verbatim Summer 10/2 As for truncation, Aussie, Argie, and Paki range in Britain from good-humored mockery to outright contempt.

2002 C. NEWLAND Snakeskin xxii. 297 We beat up kids around our area. You know, all the Pakis and coons that live around here, we used to chase 'em an' kick shit out of 'em.

1997 H. KUREISHI Love in Blue Time 69 What a job it is, walking round in this Paki gear!

Courtia Newland is described by her publishers as a young Black British writer; it matters who is allowed to use words like these. And then there is the related term for corner shop:

Paki shop n. a corner shop owned or staffed by a person of Pakistani or South Asian birth or descent.

1983 I. RICHARD We, British 44 The ‘*Paki-shop’ -- misnamed because most of them were owned, not by Pakistanis, but by Indians from East Africa -- appeared to fulfill a vital service.

2000 R. FERNANDEZ America's Banquet of Cultures vii. 202 Allegedly, a company executive told [him]..to use a van ‘parked outside the Paki shop’.

I have found some discussions about the use of the word: at The Asian News here, on the BBC Bradford pages here, and Asiana here. BrainyBabe (talk) 14:31, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

"how to use ..." in Chinese

If a person was going to teach someone to use something, like a computer for instance, would it look like this?

我教朋友能电脑。

--Ghostexorcist (talk) 02:21, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

No, it wouldn't. 能 is a word for "can", as such, so it's not appropriate. You would use it in

我朋友能用电脑。

My friend can use (the) computer.

So in your case, you mean

我教朋友用电脑。

用 is use, generally. But Chinese has different verbs for different subjects, so...

(Note: I speak Singaporean Chinese, so this may not be entirely correct. But it should be.) SS✞^(Kay) 05:05, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Mainland Mandarin is roughly the same as this. Your first example is a bit different, though; in standard Mandarin 会 would be used there instead of 能 (会 means to be able to do something as in 'possess the skills and technical ability', whereas 能 is more like to have permission and be in the right circumstances). rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 05:11, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Oh, that's right. Sorry, my mistake. SS✞^(Kay) 05:33, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Interestingly, the phrase would be rendered 我朋友識用電腦。 (TC) in Canatonese using the verb 識用 (knows how to use). The phrase 我教朋友用电脑。is used the same way in Cantonese, albeit with different pronunciation of course. --Kvasir (talk) 18:48, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedias

I noticed we have 2to Belorussian (or maybe not?) wikipedias:

• Акадэмічная
• Тарашкевiца

Neither is in latin glyph script. What is the difference?174.3.99.176 (talk) 02:24, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

One is for Belarusian (Taraškievica) language and the other for Belarusian language. -Andrew c ^[talk] 02:28, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

The difference is explained in our article on the Belarusian language, though the article's (English) language could be clearer. Marco polo (talk) 02:33, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

We also have a wikipedia for the language from Lord of The Rings. Just goes to show the Wikimedia Foundation has nothing better to spend the donations on, except maybe fancy dinners at expensive restaurants for jimbo wales —Preceding unsigned comment added by Delvenore (talk • contribs) 18:28, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

The Wikimedia Foundation does not host a Wikipedia in any language from Lord of the Rings. There used to be a Klingon Wikipedia, but not anymore. +Angr 18:38, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually they do, see Quenya Wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dendalonger (talk • contribs) 18:59, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

That's in the Incubator, it's not a Wikipedia yet, and never will be until Quenya has native speakers (or the language policy changes). +Angr 21:13, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Between a rock and a hard place

A recent question on the Misc desk included a reference to the phrase "Between a rock and a hard place", which in fact redirects to our article for "dilemma". I've never understood that phrase to refer to a dilemma (i.e. a choice between hitting a rock and some other hard thing), but simply a metaphor of being crushed, as on a millstone - to be "in a tight spot" as it were. Am I using the phrase incorrectly or is our article? If the article use is "correct", I'd have to say that the meaning has now spread to encompass the meaning I've been exposed to. Matt Deres (talk) 02:36, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I hear the phrase most often used to mean "I have to choose between two things, and neither is ideal." I'd think that is more closely related to "dilemma". Indeed, the Wiktionary entry (between a rock and a hard place) lists "to be on the horns of a dilemma" as a synonym. Xenon54 / talk / 02:56, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Yep, I always think of it along similar line as "damned if you do, damned if you don't". When you're stuck in a bad situation and there's not a thing you can do about it. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 03:00, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

But your second sentence agrees with my definition, right? Getting stuck in a bad situation isn't synonymous with having having two choices of which neither are good. Being stuck in a situation means you have no room for choices anymore... at least, that's how I'd read it. Matt Deres (talk) 04:05, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I always understood it to be synonymous with "between the devil and the deep blue sea", or "between Scylla and Charybdis". They are all metaphors for only having two choices, where both choices will kill you. See this definition: [1] --TammyMoet (talk) 08:26, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

But being between the devil and the deep blue sea isn't a choice, it's a hard to access place on a ship - again, a "tight spot" as it were, not a dilemma. I realize this bit is just my personal preference, but it would be nice if the Scylla and Charybdis metaphor would be used to only describe a situation like in the original story - on the one hand possible total disaster and on the other hand almost certain, but lesser, loss. On the other (third?) hand, I have an inkling that no person living today has ever used the phrase "I feel as though I'm caught between Scylla and Charybdis!" at all. Matt Deres (talk) 21:03, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

A certain Mr Sumner might disagree there - "You consider me the young apprentice/Caught between the Scylla and Charybdis". From Wrapped Around Your Finger. Tevildo (talk) 22:37, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Hitler ranting about Wikipedia?

Thanks to Wikipedia:AN#This_is_what_happens..., I've found a Youtube Video of Hitler getting an indef block for vandalising Wikipedia :-) What is the Hitler actor really talking about? I know absolutely no German, so I can't understand the audio. Nyttend (talk) 04:38, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Is that from the Downfall/Der Untergang film? You should find a real subtitled version somewhere on the same site, see here, etc. Essentially, as far as I know, it's really about a strategic snag in his plans near the end of WWII. -- the Great Gavini 06:30, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

If that's what it is, that's a fairly popular internet meme. (The Balloon Boy one was particularly hilarious, I thought.) Adam Bishop (talk) 07:17, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I speak German fluently and I could hardly understand the audio either without the real subtitles to help. Very weird accent, and the screaming makes it even harder. +Angr 23:01, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Our Downfall (film) article does quote one critic as saying "Ganz has Hitler's voice to near perfection. It is chillingly authentic" — I wonder how often the Germans of the 1930s were unable to follow him during the rants. Comet Tuttle (talk) 23:45, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

On some rare bits of outtake footage, you can barely see where the light pops on that says to the audience, "SIEG HEIL!" Basically a Nazi "Applause" sign. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:20, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Not having seen the film, I was also a bit surprised by the character's diction. I guess most of the Führer's soundbites familiar to us were recorded before his various health problems and addiction had progressed to that point of his last days. His dental and neurological defects may well have affected his speech, in addition to his already weird accent and diction. Ganz is a meticulously researched actor, and he is good with accents, so I guess it makes sense, as difficult it was to follow. ---Sluzzelin talk 04:03, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

The Indian equivalent of the Phillipine kalahig

Hi - I see in this article [Magic Mountain] that the hook-shaped garbage-sorting tool used by Philippino gleaners on Smokey Mountain is called the kalahig. Can anyone tell me if Indian gleaners have an equivalent tool, and what they call it?

Thanks Adambrowne666 (talk) 05:09, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Polish song lyric

Could a Polish speaker please look at this edit? I only know a few words of Polish but it doesn't look right to me (e.g. I think it is supposed to say całym rather than calem, which would be closer to the English lyric, though a bunch of lyric sites say calem). You can hear it sung if you search for "moja droga" on youtube. Thanks. 75.62.109.146 (talk) 06:59, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Calem might by a misspelling of całem which is an older spelling of całym. It would have been raher antiquated by the 1970s in Poland, but perhaps archaic forms survived longer among Polish Americans. Or perhaps it's a literal translation of "with every inch", każdym calem, but this would be unidiomatic in Polish, and calem sercem is simply ungrammatical. I'll try to look for some lyrics online to confirm what I'm saying. — Kpalion^(talk) 09:05, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

My theory is that a lyric site mistakenly says "calem" (inch) when it should say "całym" (all), and that the person who made that edit saw the erroneous lyric site and translated "calem" with a dictionary instead of correcting the transcription. Does that sound plausible? I listened to Michal Gielniak's version on youtube and it sounds to me like he's singing "całym". 75.62.109.146 (talk) 09:18, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it does sound plausible. — Kpalion^(talk) 11:48, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I got to listen to the song on Youtube now. Jeez, what kitsch. Anyway, he definitely sings całym sercem. I already corrected the article. — Kpalion^(talk) 20:17, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Yeah, I hate that song too. Some masochism made me listen to it recently along with a bunch of other awful stuff by the same guy. 75.62.109.146 (talk) 21:07, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I googled around a little more. Apparently, the ambiguity of the phrase moja droga (it can mean both "my dear" and "my road") produced several humorous pastiche versions of this song, such as Moja droga asfaltowa, a po niej jedzie fiat... ("A Fiat driving down my asphalt road..."). — Kpalion^(talk) 21:32, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Heh, that's funny. I guess I'm not surprised. I liked the Fiat 126 article since I saw a lot of those cars when I visited Poland, though I never rode in one. You might know that in the USA, Fiat is sometimes said to stand for Fix it again Tony. Somehow it all fits together. 75.62.109.146 (talk) 22:13, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Hehe, I love Slavic false friends. In Serbo-Croatian, "moja droga" means "my drug" so the song must have been written by a junkie :). No such user (talk) 08:20, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "Kiehl's"

How is "Kiehl's" pronounced? Like "Kyle's"? or is it like "keels" rhyming with "heels"? --Quest for Truth (talk) 08:09, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I'd pronounce it like the latter, "keels". -- Flyguy649 ^talk 08:13, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

You could send them an e-mail and ask. +Angr 08:29, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

In videos at their web site it's pronounced "keels".--Cam (talk) 05:55, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Foul

What is the origin of the word foul to refer to birds and football errors? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Delvenore (talk • contribs) 11:01, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

They're two different words, the bird is fowl. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 11:06, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

(After edit conflict) Foul is an ancient word that means rotten, filthy, or disgusting, and has been used in the sense "morally repugnant" since medieval times, thus also as the opposite of fair in games and sports. Fowl is basically the same as German Vogel and Swedish fågel, "bird". Both ancient words that happen to be pronounced the same in modern English.--Rallette (talk) 11:14, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

See 'foul' on etymonline.com and 'fowl' (2nd entry) on etymonline.com for more information. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 13:05, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Translate

Translate:

オオイヌノフグリは1880年に東京で帰化しているのが確認されている。イヌノフグリがこれに押されて減少しているようだ。 —Preceding unsigned comment added by CapitalArgrave (talk • contribs) 11:23, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Did you forget to write the word "Please" ?doktorb _words^deeds 11:50, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

That not make sence in context? You are sure this correct translated? —Preceding unsigned comment added by CapitalArgrave (talk • contribs) 11:55, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

It's usual in English, when asking someone to do something for you, to add the word "please" to the question. --TammyMoet (talk) 11:58, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure that is the usual etiquette in ANY language and culture. --Kvasir (talk) 18:54, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually not; "please" is an English word, not a word that appears in every language :-) Nyttend (talk) 21:44, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

A very large percentage of question on the Mandarin Wikipedia reference desk, probably much higher than on English Wikipedia, begin with the prhase "请问" ("Please [what is or who is . . ., etc. as the case may be]?")--Dpr (talk) 02:35, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

As someone whose native language has no comparable word, I can recall many warnings from my English teachers and a few "educational" real-world experiences, but I still find it impressive how offensive such a small omission sounds to a native English speaker. 84.231.21.207 (talk) 01:25, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Anthropologically, it's facinating. Notice also how hard it is for native English speakers to get their head around the idea that it is not universal. Like telling an Englishman he apologises too much. Anyone have recommended reading, other than Watching the English? 80.47.19.91 (talk) 01:47, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Funnily enough, I'm an Englishman, and I translated the sentence without a second thought for whether the request had 'please' in it. Maybe that's because I've been round non-native speakers of English for most of my life. Or maybe it's just because I really couldn't care less. :) --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 02:05, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

As Cecil Rhodes once said, "You, sir, are an Englishman, and have therefore won first prize in the Lottery of Life". That's something to keep your spirits up on those dreary English wet Sunday afternoons.  :) -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 04:07, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

You see, I only said it because, to my English ears, it IS rude to demand something without "please", in speech or writing. I know some rules are a bit less tight on-line...please and thankyou isn't one of them doktorb _words^deeds 11:31, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Au contraire. When asking for something, always say 'please'. Sure. But demanding things is a different thing. In fact, If I were demanding or insisting you do something, I'd be unlikely to say 'please'. An irate customer of a shop would not be adding 'please' to "I am appalled at the way you people run this place. I want this item replaced, or I'll be taking the matter further". Mothers tend to say 'please' when issuing commands to their children - "Charlene and Brianette, clean your rooms, please" - but they're in no doubt it's not a choice. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 14:11, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Ah, yes, badly worded on my part doktorb _words^deeds 14:35, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

'It has been confirmed that Veronica persica was domesticated/naturalised in Tokyo in 1880. On account of this it seems that [the numbers] of V. didyma var. lilacina are decreasing.' --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 12:32, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I was hoping someone would translate it into Egyptian or something, just to annoy the impolite OPer.DOR (HK) (talk) 08:58, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Any votes on opening a new thread on the topic of whether 'please' is totally necessary or not, because, let's put it this way, the only proper answer to the original question is now half a mile down the page away from it? --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 14:21, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Hollyburn

What is hollyburn? It seems to be used in the language of the 2010 Winter Olympics.174.3.99.176 (talk) 20:43, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Google tells me it's used in a number of placenames in and around Vancouver. Not sure if that's relevant, but it's all I can find. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 22:10, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

See Hollyburn Heritage Society. -- Wavelength (talk) 22:31, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Hollyburn Mountain is near Cypress Bowl, where the freestyle skiing and snowboarding competitions were held, but it's difficult to know exactly what the OP is asking about without some context. It could be a reference to an area (49.3280°N 123.1543°W / 49.3280; -123.1543) of West Vancouver or any of several other things. Deor (talk) 22:37, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Is there etymology?174.3.110.108 (talk) 20:52, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

According to this site, "West Vancouver's first white settler, John Lawson[,] planted holly by the side of the 'burn' (a Scottish word for a stream) flowing across his property. Putting the two words together, he coined 'Hollyburn' as the name for his place." Deor (talk) 22:24, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

The god of death looks fierce and dark like a heap of eyewash?

[[2]] - see in this part of the article where Yama is said to be 'fierce and dark like a heap of collyrium'. Collyrium is eyewash.

Huh?

Adambrowne666 (talk) 21:21, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, as the collyrium article says, it is also other, non-liquid, things. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:46, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

True - but solid or liquid, it still seems an odd thing to compare the god of death to. I guess the only collyrium known to the author of the original text must have been some nasty dark stuff. Adambrowne666 (talk) 22:54, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

The English phrase “fierce and dark like a heap of collyrium” is attributed in the article to the Garuda Purana (2.5.147-149) which is a Sanskrit text. I don’t have a copy of the text on hand, but the concept translated as “collyrium” is a common image. Sanskrit words for “collyrium” are listed in Apte's "The Student's English-Sanskrit Dictionary" p. 64. Three alternatives are given. अंजनं (añjanaṁ) in general refers to an ointment, but specifically it is a type of cosmetic used to blacken the eyelashes. Chemical composition is pulverized antimony, and the use of antimony as a cosmetic is mentioned in the Wikipedia article for that substance (Macdonell’s “A Practical Sanskrit Dictionary”, p. 5). कज्जलं (kajjalaṁ) is lamp-black, and collyrium is prepared from it (Macdonell, p. 61). नेत्ररंजनं (netrañjanaṁ) is eye-salve (netra means eye) (Macdonell, p. 147).

So the word that is probably used in the original text was either añjanaṁ or kajjalaṁ, both of which are black types of netrañjanaṁ. Yama is associated with the color black, so the image of blackness is intended. I have noticed the use of the English word collyrium in translations of other texts that use it in the sense of a medicinal eye-salve (as opposed to a cosmetic) but in a different context. The condition of being unable to see the reality of the world around us is sometimes compared to the medical problem of a partially-blind person or someone with vision trouble. The use of eye-salves for medicinal purposes to improve sight is used as an analogy for the use of spiritual study to help remove weakness of inner sight. The specific medical condition sometimes mentioned for this analogy is तिमिरं (timiraṁ) which means “darkened” or “clouded”eyesight. So the association with darkness is present even in that use, but indirectly. Buddhipriya (talk) 00:57, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Really excellent answer, thanks, Buddhipriya. I still think it's a weak simile, but I see now why it was used - I wonder if 'black as kohl' would do just as well; it loses the 'clouded eyesight' subtext, but is stronger otherwise. Anyway, thanks again. Adambrowne666 (talk) 10:39, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

"Black as kohl" is a wonderful pun. Of course the problem here is that the article cites a translation, so the hapless translator bears responsibility, not the text itself. I posted a note about your point on the Yama talk page in case someone ever wants to adjust the language in the article. Thanks for raising the issue. Buddhipriya (talk) 02:53, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

The translation appears to be by Jagdish Lal Shastri and is almost certainly copyrighted, so editors probably shouldn't be blithely adjusting its language (and the article needs to credit the source). Deor (talk) 03:18, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Very interesting catch. I think the article could use some copyediting anyway so perhaps I will get rid of the direct quote since it is confusing anyway. Why don't you go ahead and make the point on the talk page for the article? I have located an electronic version of the source text for the Garuda Purana and will look at it in the next day or two. http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil/1_sanskr/3_purana/garup2_u.htm Buddhipriya (talk) 20:11, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

First Word

What was the first word? I don't mean random grunts from Cavemen, I mean an actual real word. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crockadoc (talk • contribs) 22:43, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

The simple answer is "we don't know". Speech goes way, _way_ back before anything akin to the historical record, so there's no way of finding out what the first _spoken_ word was. The earliest _written_ words that have survived are either the Narmer Palette or some writings from Jemdet Nasr (both about 3100 BC) - see List of languages by first written accounts. Tevildo (talk) 22:52, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Furthermore, even if we had a time machine and could go back and listen, I don't think there would be a clear answer to your question. When does what you call a "random grunt" become a word? Could there be a time when there was only one word? We don't even know whether language happened many times or only once.

You might like to look at Origin of language. --ColinFine (talk) 23:31, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I think it was "troll". Woogee (talk) 23:33, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, looking at his other contributions, I reckon you're right, Woogee Adambrowne666 (talk) 23:45, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

What makes you say that? I don't see any trolling in his contribs. Some people just like asking questions.

rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 15:45, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Maybe I'm cynical, Rjanag; just that Crock's every question has been basically unanswerable - not sure if it should be called trolling, but it feels like he's playing rather than really curious Adambrowne666 (talk)

I remember getting a chuckle from some magazine article claiming paleo-linguists had determined that the first word was tik and that it meant "finger". Proto-Human language actually says some things about this topic. Unfortunately, no written documentation from before the development of language seems to have survived. ;-) 75.62.109.146 (talk) 00:24, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure that you didn't misread that? I remember hearing that the word for finger (*tik) had been reconstructed for proto-World. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 03:13, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the word was God." The word for "the Word" is the Greek "Logos". Hope that helps. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:27, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

The Old Testament (from whence that phrase comes) was not written in Greek. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 18:08, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

The phrase is the first verse of Gospel of John, not from the Old Testament.—Emil J. 18:15, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Given that the word for "mother" in nearly every language on earth is some variant on "ma", one could make a case for that one. But no one actually knows, because written language came long after spoken language arose. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:44, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

See the article on mama and papa for that phenomenon, and ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny for Bugs's approach (does it exist in linguistics)? ---Sluzzelin talk 04:52, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

It isn't really a word if there aren't any other words, it's just a sound. What makes a sound a word is that it is part of a particular language and you can't have a meaningful language of one word. --Tango (talk) 05:31, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Not necessarily. If you have an utterance that means "watch out" and no others, it's still pretty useful. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 10:26, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

There was a Far Side joke that a scientist had a machine that figured out what dogs are saying when they're barking at each other. Turns out what they're saying is, "Hey!" So from the "near" side, you might be onto something. Assuming the OP considers "Hey!" to be a word, whatever a caveman might have said for "Hey!" could qualify. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:24, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

I think it was "madam," wasn't it? ("Madam, I'm Adam.") —Bkell (talk) 16:28, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

[[3]] Bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonnerronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenthurnuk]] Adambrowne666 (talk) 02:28, 6 March 2010 (UTC)