Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 March 22

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March 22

Name suffixes

I've been wondering about these suffixes some historically-important people have. For example: Richard the Lionheart, Charles the Wise, Boleslaw the Pious, Owen the Bald, Vlad the Impaler, and Robert the Strong.

• 1) Is there a name for these kinds of suffixes?
• 2) Are they always posthumous?
• 3) Are these a thing of the past or are they still used? --✚Cōdell 03:05, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

They aren't exactly suffixes, they're descriptive phrases, especially from a time when surnames were not particularly in use. Probably not so common in modern times, but a few examples that come to mind are Billy the Kid, Stan "the Man" Musial, and Murray the K. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:12, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

The article Epithet has some of the answers. Deor (talk) 03:35, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

As does George Dubya meltBanana 03:37, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Epithet seems to be what I am looking for. --✚Cōdell 03:49, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, yes. The article only gives a quick pooh-pooh to the colloquial meaning of "epithet", which refers to an insulting name, but even if it's been "discredited", it's still used that way. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:13, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Epithet is apparently distinctive from Sobriquet, in that the latter is often used in place of a regular name, rather than as a suffix. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:17, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

... and Alexander the Great. Michael Hardy (talk) 05:07, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

What about cognomen? Isn't it used in the sense as well? — Kpalion^(talk) 11:39, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes - see List of monarchs by nickname Alansplodge (talk) 20:23, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

My favourite is Charles VI of France who is Charles le Fou, sometimes (but sadly not in Wikipedia) translated as "Charles the Silly". Alansplodge (talk) 14:13, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Don't forget Philip II of Spain, otherwise known as "Philip the Sap"[1] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:19, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Or Æthelred the Unready. StuRat (talk) 14:44, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Or Achmed the Mad a.k.a. Achmed the 'I Just Get These Headaches'. Gandalf61 (talk) 16:07, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, C. L. Sulzberger's A Long Row of Candles referred to Ahmed Bey Zogu, who proclaimed himself Zog of the Albanians, as "King Zog the Last." --- OtherDave (talk) 19:20, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Ooh, and there's Ragnar Hairybreeks, sometimes translated as "Hairy Trousers" (is it "Hairy Pants" in the US ?) and two other Viking chaps who might have been his sons, Ivar the Boneless and Sigurd Snake-in-the-Eye. Alansplodge (talk) 20:03, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

And a rather obvious one I had overlooked, "Popeye the Sailor". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:20, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I always found Eric the Lisp and Lame of Sweden amusing. It's unfortunate that Wikipedia names him with his ordinal, since he is almost only ever referred to with the epithet in Swedish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Coffeeshivers (talk • contribs) 22:40, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Acknowledged. Pertaining to my second question, epithets apparently aren't always posthumous. "He was known as Cœur de Lion, or Richard the Lionheart, even before his accession, because of his reputation as a great military leader and warrior.".--✚Cōdell 18:00, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Vowels in English, French, and German

It's easy to think of a vowel that's heard in French and German but not in English: the sound in the French word rue. It is similarly easy to think of a vowel heard in English and German, but not in French: the "short i" sound in English bit. In trying to think of one heard in English and French but not in German, I am handicapped by not knowing French. I have heard "Madames et Monsieurs" pronounced in a way that made the second syllable of the first word sound to me like the vowel in English cat, and similarly the vowel in French dingue. But I wonder if maybe that fails to qualify because it's an allophonic variant of something? Michael Hardy (talk) 05:07, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't know German, but English has a pretty large vowel system; 11 or so monopthongs (depending on the dialect), not to mention dipthongs. Of course, French has nasal vowels, which English doesn't. But French certainly doesn't have æ (the vowel in American English "cat"; what you hear in "dingue" is ɛ̃). French also lacks English ʌ ("but"), ʊ ("book"), and ɪ ("bit"). rʨanaɢ (talk) 05:18, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

There is [ w ] in Wikipedia:IPA for English and in Wikipedia:IPA for French, but not in Wikipedia:IPA for German.

-- Wavelength (talk) 05:57, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Québécois has ɪ. -- the Great Gavini 06:28, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

But w is a consonant, not a vowel, according to the article you linked, Wavelength. (w in the "English word cwm is a completely different sound.) 75.41.110.200 (talk) 13:32, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

How about [ɑ] - it is certainly phonemic in many English dialects, also phonemic in some French dialects according to French phonology, and not usually given as a phoneme of German - although I remember reading an argument somewhere that German /a/ is really [ɑ]. Lfh (talk) 13:36, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

OK, maybe there are no fully uncontroversial or unqualified examples of the sort I asked about.

The sound in English book is of course another example of one shared by English and German but not found in French. Michael Hardy (talk) 06:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

For the record, "Madames et Monsieurs" is incorrect. The plural is Mesdames et Messieurs. 07:47, 23 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.185.253.158 (talk)

Sacred Seventeen

Does it have a figurative meaning? If yes, where does it come from? Thanks.--Omidinist (talk) 06:24, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Since nobody has yet answered I assume none of us have come across this phrase. Some context would be helpful. Where have you encountered it? Googling only throws up some random suggestions.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 15:18, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

US banks that must be protected from bankrupcy?[2] Grateful Dead shows?[3] Haiku syllables?[4]

I suspect that "sacred <number>" is a fairly common expression in some circles used to refer to a group of especially privileged people or organisations. "Sacred 3" and "sacred 4" are found in paganism and other branches of mysticism. There's the "Sacred 5 of China"[5], and various results for 6 and 7[6]. "Sacred Sixteen" brings up a few Google hits too. And perhaps an earlier sighting, the "Sacred Twenty" first female US navy nurses[7] (see United States Navy Nurse Corps). Sorry, but I've no idea what the original of this was, but it seems it can be used to refer to almost anything. --Normansmithy (talk) 16:05, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the context shows what Normansmithy suggests should be true. The context is 'the sacred seventeen who were the East India Company's Board of Governors'. Thanks so much. --Omidinist (talk) 17:39, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Kataab Ashbal Al Islam Al Salafi

The phrase "Kataab Ashbal Al Islam Al Salafi" has been translated in the news as "Islamic Salafist Boy Scout Battalions", but that seems suspect. Islam and Salafi are fairly obvious, but Boy Scout is usually kashafa or Scout in Arabic. Can anyone reliably translate kataab and ashbal? ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 12:22, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Caveat: I know next to nothing about the language, but probably "reliable" dictionaries I've checked seem to yield "cub" or "lion cub" for the latter word (apparently from a root that has something to do with "caring"). The former looks like words meaning "battalion" (from that textbook K-T-B root). So "ashbal" is the scouts part, and "kataab" is the battalion part (I think). -- the Great Gavini 17:28, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

The original translation is correct. Kataab (کتائب) is battalions; and al-shbal or ash-shbal (الشبل) is what the Great Gavini suggests. --Omidinist (talk) 18:11, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Now that I know what to look for, Ashbal Saddam (Saddam's Lion Cubs) is noted at Fedayeen Saddam. I'm guessing this is a new group coopting the older name. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 18:19, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

My dictionary defines shibl (plural ashbāl اشبال) as meaning "lion cub; a capable young man, brave youth, young athlete". In the current Iraqi context, I would imagine that the word "Salafi" was chosen to announce to everyone loud and clear that they're against Shi'ites and against so-called "secularists" (across-community political movements). AnonMoos (talk) 21:24, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks— we knew it wasn't Boy Scout, but the translation has certainly propagated in the media. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 22:43, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

The word shibl (Plural ashbāl) in Arabic does not only mean a lion cub, but also refers to a junior member of the Boy Scouts. 78.101.128.50 (talk) 21:33, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, as noted in Boy Scouts of Bahrain. I think we can rule out any Scouting connection to this group. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 22:06, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Latin to English translation

Please provide a Latin to English translation: "Omnibus ad quos hae Literae pervenerint, Salutem in Domino sempiternam." Thank you. (64.252.6.148 (talk) 14:05, 22 March 2010 (UTC))

See Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2009 July 1#To all to whom these presents shall come, greeting! for another discussion. (In correctly spelled Latin, the word litterae [or Litterae] has a double t. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:36, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Probably just another Wash U. alum who can't read his diploma. :-) Deor (talk) 14:56, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

All joking aside, I suppose I should supply the requested translation: "To all to whom these letters [i.e., this message] will come, everlasting greeting in the Lord." Deor (talk) 15:12, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Re "Salutem in Domino sempiternam": "may the Lord ever preserve and keep you" from [8] -- a "conventional greeting" [9] 198.161.238.18 (talk) 18:59, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Caecilius est in horto. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.103.172.9 (talk) 15:25, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Thank you to all for the above information ... it was very helpful ... and much appreciated. Thanks! (64.252.65.146 (talk) 17:38, 27 March 2010 (UTC))