Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 July 28

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July 28

Pre-Germanic English in modern English

Your articles about the origin of the English language say that it mostly came from German languages with a lot of French words thrown it. What I can't find is how many words in English came from the language of the people of England before the Saxons got there. I found Lists of English words of Celtic origin, which lists words that came from the old Scottish, Irish, Welsh, and Gaul languages, but has anything survived from the pre-Saxon language of England? —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 00:22, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

What exactly do you mean by 'pre-Saxon language of England' if you do not mean the languages of the Celtic peoples on these islands? The Saxons arrived around 500AD (the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle has the earliest arrival of Saxons at 449AD, I believe) and the languages of the Britons had already broken up into Old Scots, Old Irish, and Old Welsh by that time. Proto-Celtic (or whatever the branch specific to Britain would be called) would not have influenced the language of the Saxons, as it was spoken at least a thousand years prior. There is, however, evidence of Celtic influence in certain Proto-Germanic words, such as the word for 'five' and a few other words which did not survive into the Old English period. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 01:35, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

After Proto-Celtic had broken into Old Scots, Old Irish, and Old Welsh, but before 449AD, what language were the people of England speaking? —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 03:24, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Right, the area we now call England only came to be called England after the Anglo-Saxons arrived. Prior to their arrival, the area now called England was just part of a broader land called by the Romans 'Britannia' - or 'Britain' as we call it now. This land was inhabited by the 'Britons', which is the name we give to the Celtic tribes living on the largest island of the British Isles. There were fundamentally two types - Goidelic and Bretonnic (various spellings exist for both of these) and the Bretonnic people were the ones that gave rise to the Welsh and Cornish languages. Before the Saxons turned up, these people weren't confined to Wales and Cornwall, though - they were everywhere, but through various processes (war and assimilation) the Saxons and their language became dominant in the area we call England. Therefore, it is safe to presume that the language spoken here immediately before the Saxons arrived was a slightly older version of Old Welsh or Old Cornish or other very similar 'languages' or 'dialects' (depending on how you might look at them at that time in history). --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 04:33, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

My understanding is that there was remarkably little influence. Normally an invading population will at the very least take place names from the natives, simply because it is so annoying to have to invent new ones -- just think of all the Indian names for places in the United States. But in England virtually the only Celtic-derived place names are for a few major cities such as London, York, etc.. This suggests that there were no Celts around that the Saxons could ask "what is this place called?" The few written accounts say that the Celts were devastated by a plague (in fact the Bubonic plague hit in the 540's), and the few survivors fled to the mountains of Wales. But it's hard to be certain of the truth of that. Looie496 (talk) 02:00, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, both London and York come from the Latin names of those cities, and many of the larger settlements will also follow this pattern, having probably been home to large Roman armies ('-caster' and '-chester' in many placenames both come from Latin 'castra', meaning 'camp'). It is actually the smaller lesser known places that are more likely to have names of Celtic origin. Hill hill hill hill is a fun example of how the Saxons (and others) probably did ask the original locals what a place was called before deciding to call it that and then adding their own word to it to describe the surrounding area (in the sense that it includes the word 'penn', from a British word meaning 'head'). --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 02:12, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I take it if there was little language transfer there was also little intermarrying. Were the people of England (minus Cornwall) from 449 to 1066 almost pure German? —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 03:24, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

There probably was a fair amount of intermarrying. It is just a fact that one of the languages (English) became dominant in this area (England). --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 04:33, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

There was evidently a shift in language from Brythonic (Welsh) to English without a correspondingly large change in population. At least in the northeast of England (Yorkshire ~ Northumberland), the local modern English dialect shows Brythonic influence in the grammar, but not in the vocabulary, suggesting that native speakers were for a time a rather small minority among English language users, with the majority of English being spoken by native Brythonic speakers to each other. If one language is perceived as having greater value, languages can be replaced without any population replacement at all. Recently this happened in Angola, which is now maybe 80% Portuguese speaking despite having very little Portuguese ancestry. — kwami (talk) 05:13, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

How is Brythonic substratum influence visible in the northeast? I have never heard about such a thing before.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 15:59, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

It would be more correct to say northwest - see Cumbric language and Hen Ogledd. Alansplodge (talk) 21:04, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, a couple of placenames and Yan Tan Tethera - but Kwami said grammatical influence, and that's new to me.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 15:40, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

The Modern English progressive aspect is often said to be due to Celtic influence. Constructions like "I am running" and "I was talking" are practically unknown in other Germanic languages, but present in all Insular Celtic languages (both Brythonic and Goidelic). +Angr 09:01, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

BTW, KageTora, the names of London and York are of Celtic origin. The Latin names are just Latin renderings of Celtic words. And I don't think it's true that "in England virtually the only Celtic-derived place names are for a few major cities". There are really a lot of Celtic place names in England (Kent, Dover), especially the names of rivers (Thames, Severn, Avon). And even if it were true, I wouldn't take the lack of Celtic town names as evidence that there were no Celtic speakers there before the English arrived. After all, the part of England under the Danelaw now has mostly Norse town names, but that doesn't mean it was devoid of English speakers before the Norse arrived. +Angr 06:03, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

OK, Angr, I suppose I should have made a clearer distinction between direct borrowing and indirect borrowing (in this case through Latin). And, ftr, the rest of your post does not refer to my post but to the one above it :) --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 12:25, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Towns, and substantial settlements generally, didn't really exist before the Romans and mostly didn't continue for long afterwards. The only place names which would have - and, in some cases, did - survive relate to natural features, especially rivers, and also in some places the remnants of tribal names. For instance, place names like Devon and (the first element of) Dorset contain Celtic elements, deriving from the pre-Roman tribes which the Romans called the Dumnonii and Durotriges. Ghmyrtle (talk) 06:59, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

There is material relevant to the foregoing discussion in Anglo-Saxon settlement of Britain, if you haven't already seen that. Also, I recall that someone has recently put forward a radical re-interpretation to the effect that Germanic languages were widely spoken in Britain even before the Roman Conquest. Unfortunately I can't recall his name, although I'm sure we must have material on this somewhere. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 16:13, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Stephen Oppenheimer? Adam Bishop (talk) 00:13, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I think there are probably some English Celtic words in modern dialect, but it has become almost impossible to trace the origin because of intervening influences. For example, my mother uses the old singular carn for a pile of stones forming a stone man (cairn is the Celtic plural). I suspect that this is independent of any Scottish or Irish influences, but I would probably not be able to prove this. Dbfirs 12:54, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I would definitely agree with that. There were plenty of words that my grandmother used to use - 'pratees' for 'potatoes' (from Ir. 'prátaí') being one that springs to mind. My grandmother's older generation were Irish immigrants, though. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 15:25, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Cowboy slang...from the movies.

It's borderline whether I should be asking this on the Entertainment desk...but here goes.

I'm writing a computer game based around cheesy cowboy movies - and I need to get the lingo right for a crowd of guys in a bar. To be completely clear: I'm not in the slightest bit interested in 'realistic' speech from that era - certainly not if if comes out like the 'Deadwood' TV series!

What I need is some vocabulary - what words identify this as a "cheesy western movie"? Some I can think of are the word "Mosey" - meaning "To Walk", Burro for "Mule". But I'm short on ideas.

Go nuts...what words can you think of that fit the genre?

Thanks in advance... SteveBaker (talk) 01:14, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Pardner (roughly equivalent to 'buddy'), hoosgow ('jail'), Madame & bordello (for some reason westerns never have male pimps). really, just go rent any old John Wayne movie, and you'll be inundated with this stuff. --Ludwigs2 01:47, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Critter, varmint, tarnation, ornery, tombstone, gulch, vittles, plumb tuckered out. -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 02:20, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

There's a good one at the end of this 40-second clip[1] and it's well known, yer dern tootin'! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:24, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

That clip also has Mexicans saying "vamonos" ("let's go") which was corrupted into the western expression "vamoose". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:25, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Hey, Bugs, you old carrot-chomping septuagenarian whippersnapper, happy birthday! —— Shakescene (talk) 03:41, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Hey, t'anks, Doc! Just t'ink - 70 years and only one gray hare! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:55, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

So Wiktionary says, but I don't see why they pick on vamonos rather than vamos. 213.122.9.117 (talk) 07:17, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Dang nabbit! That blasted scallywag done vamoosed with mah horse! Ifin I gits my hands on him, I’ll string ‘em up! I’m a gonna stretch that no good polecat’s neck! It’ll be a real necktie party! Come on, boys! We’ll head ‘em off at the pass! Who’s with me? DOR (HK) (talk) 08:58, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Just want to add posse, saloon, gun slinger, tumble weed, shoot out, round up, outlaw, rustler to the list. The "critter, varmint, tarnation, ornery" suggestion given strikes me as more Kentucky/Tennessee/Davy Crockett/hillbilly than cheesy Western? By the way, the best film to watch for inspiration is Mel Brooks' Blazing Saddles, because as a piss-take on Westerns you get all the clichés, :) Maedin\^talk 10:31, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Also check out the overlooked Rustlers' Rhapsody. Andy Griffith plays a hilarious parody of a cattle baron. For motre vernacular, check out Cowboy Lingo. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 15:22, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I'll add "fourflusher" (one who cheats in gambling), "bushwhack" (to ambush) and the noun "bushwhacker", and "tenderfoot" (or, if you're John Wayne, the synonymous "pilgrim"). Deor (talk) 14:32, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

"vamonos instead of vamos" - it's a little more informal in the reflexive form, 'let's go' rather than the imperative 'we go'. Richard Avery (talk) 15:16, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Hmm. There's "dogey" (as in "Git along, lil dogey!"), meaning an orphaned calf. And make sure you pronounce "coyote" as "ki-YOTE". And don't forget your character needs to have "a plug a' tabacky" in his cheek when he says this stuff. Matt Deres (talk) 15:24, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

You need to watch Carry On Cowboy[2] for every Wild West cliché known to us Brits. Alansplodge (talk) 16:30, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I can't remember how much stereotypical cowboy slang it has, but an early send-up of horse operas was the song "I'm an Old Cowhand from the Rio Grande", written by Johnny Mercer for Bing Crosby. See http://www.cmt.com/lyrics/roy-rogers-country/im-an-old-cowhand/7413395/lyrics.jhtml (an apparently legitimate, unpiratical link, CMT or Country Music Television, citing proper sources, copyright and terms of service). —— Shakescene (talk) 17:49, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Yippee-i-o-ki-ay! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:57, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Some cowboys might dislike the stereotype. -- Wavelength (talk) 22:50, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Those stereotypes are affectionate. America loves its cowboys. Cowboys are to America what knights in shining armor are to England, etc. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:54, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Greek and Russian alphabet?

Why do the Greek alphabet and the Russian alphabet have some similar looking characters? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.1.80.1 (talk) 05:48, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Because the Cyrillic alphabet is derived from the Greek alphabet. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:53, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

The name Tsvetelina

Tsvetelina is a Bulgarian name. Does it have any corresponding forms in other languages? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.61.234.225 (talk) 08:21, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Svetlana, perhaps? Best, WikiJedits (talk) 09:34, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't think Svetlana is the same name. Svetlana derives from the Slavic element svet meaning "light, world". Tsvetelina seems to be related to names like Tsveta, Tsvetanka and Tsvetan (male). They come from Slavic цвете, flower. Names with the same etymology are Květa (Czech), Kveta (Slovak), Kveta/Kvetka Cveta/Cvetka/Cvetana/Cvetanka/Cvetina (Croatian and Slovene). Names with a similar meaning are Flora (Latin/Italian/Spanish...), Virág (Hungarian), Bluma (Yiddish). --151.51.156.20 (talk) 10:02, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

South Slavic variant is actually with <C> (/ts/) "Cveta/Cvetka/Cvijeta", but you're right about etymology. Those names are the most popular in Bulgaria, and the more common form is Tsvetana (Цветана). No such user (talk) 10:16, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

The site behindthename.com could be a useful source. It's particularly good at tracing etymologies of given names, but it doesn't seem to contain Tsvetelina in its database. Bulgarian Цветан, Цвета, Цветана, Цветанка, Цветелина (Tsvetan, Tsveta, Tsvetana, Tsvetanka, Tsvetelina) are derived from Proto-Slavic *květъ, meaning "colour" or "flower". Svetlana (and its cognates) comes from Proto-Slavic *světъ, "light", and so is unrelated. Behindthename.com mentions also Croatian Cvita as what would be a corresponding form of Tsvetelina, though I would doubt it could be extremely common. --Theurgist (talk) 11:01, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I suppose Cvita is an Ikavian variant. +Angr 17:27, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

That's actually quite possible, given the vowel in *květъ, *квѣтъ, is the yat vowel. --Theurgist (talk) 20:49, 28 July 2010 (UTC)