Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 January 15

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January 15

Spanish subjunctive tense

I know that the subjunctive tense in Spanish is used for hopes, desires, doubts, emotions, but am confused about the use in two particular examples:

Me gusta que ella sepa la verdad.

Es imposible que yo sirva la comida a las ocho.

To me, they both seem definitive. Am I missing some usage? Grsz¹¹ 04:57, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

In the first example, using the subjunctive implies to me that you're not sure that she knows the truth, i.e. there's a situation where she might know (and you like that she knows), but it's possible that she didn't find out. In the second example, you're talking a) about a future event - it's not yet eight o'clock, and b) an event that the sentence has described as impossible. An impossible event also merites the subjunctive. Steewi (talk) 05:46, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

See Subjunctive mood#The subjunctive in Spanish. -- Wavelength (talk) 18:48, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

THE WORD CELTIC

WHY HAS THE FOOTBALL TEAM CELTIC AND THE GROUP OF PEOPLE CELTS AS IN CELTIC'S HAVE THE SAME SPELL BUT ARE PRONOUNCED DIFFERENTLY

YVONNE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.145.232.133 (talk) 05:11, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

See Names of the Celts#Pronunciation. Grsz¹¹ 05:19, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

The natural way to pronounce an English word starting with CE is like it were SE. My old Webster's indicates "seltic" as the preferred, and "keltic" as the British pronunciation; but that was 1960, and as the article notes, "keltic" is heard more and more often when used in reference to the Celts. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:21, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Ah, those Celts and their annoying spells... Seriously though, how are those two pronounced? If anything, I'd pronounce them both with "s". Which of the two is pronounced with a "k"? TomorrowTime (talk) 06:44, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

The group of people. I'm not sure what's governed the variation. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 06:51, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

As the linked article says, the /k/ pronunciation was formerly used only by scholars, but has been gaining ground everywhere except in the popular field of sports clubs. --ColinFine (talk) 08:18, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Though that doesn't explain why. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 08:39, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps scholars were more influenced by Greek Κελτοί and German Kelten. Back in the 19th century and early 20th century it was common for English-speaking scholars to spell Kelt and Keltic with a K, too. +Angr 09:54, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I prefer pronouncing the word the same way as the basketball team. The Big Book of Beastly Mispronunciations recommends pronouncing it like an 's' when it's spelled "Celtic", and pronouncing it like a 'k' when it's spelled "Keltic". Paul Davidson (talk) 11:02, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Those who, like me, identify as members of the Celtic community, virtually universally call themselves "kelts", not "selts". That is our right, and it behoves others to respect that. As for football teams and the like, they can call themselves whatever they like as long as they don't purport to represent the mainstream pronunciation. Those transliterators who gave us the C spelling where the K version was preferable also stuffed up words formed from kephalos, which are usually spelt -ceph- and consequently pronounced "sef". -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 11:21, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

That's probably why we also say "bi-sycle" rather than "bi-kycle", yes? Pronunciations evolve. I'm reminded of something Will Cuppy said about Attila the Hun: "Attila does not rhyme with vanilla, as it did in my day. It's thought that if the first syllable is stressed, things will turn out better somehow." :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:15, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

The Boston Celtics also use the 's' sound. 67.51.38.51 (talk) 16:33, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Is Names of the Celts#Pronunciation supposed to read "the initial ‹c› can be realised either as /k/ or /k/" - the two look identical to me! /s/ is referenced in the next paragraph, maybe it should be one of them (which would make sense to me). - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 14:41, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

That mistake was made in this edit:[1] It was corrected about 7 minutes after you posted. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:08, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Oops! — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 20:53, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I think I'm right in saying that there is no "soft C" in any of the Celtic Languages. Alansplodge (talk) 17:27, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

There is, but it's a different kind of soft. (See also Italian.) —Tamfang (talk) 07:30, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

RE CELTIC

THANKS TO ALL WHO ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS ON WHY CELTIC AND CELTIC ARE SPELT THE SAME BUT PRONOUNCED DIFFERENTLY THANKS AGAIN —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.145.235.214 (talk) 14:22, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

How is this persons name spelled?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8451000/8451264.stm At about 24 seconds in, how would that persons name be spelt? The other name mentioned, at about 2.21, sounds as though it would be spelt Roy Baumaster to me. Thanks. 78.147.233.120 (talk) 14:43, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

If you Google for Stanford "fruit salad" "chocolate cake", the first hit will tell you that the person's name is Baba Shiv. Deor (talk) 15:20, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. The other guy appears to be Roy Baumeister. 78.147.233.120 (talk) 15:52, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Spelled or spelt?

Are they both correct, or is one to be preferred to the other? 78.147.233.120 (talk) 14:44, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

"Spelt" is not used in American English (as a past tense of spell), but I believe it is perfectly acceptable in British English. I don't know which is preferred. --LarryMac | Talk 14:50, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

The Guardian's style guide draws some kind of distinction as to what circumstances their writers should use each one in: she spelled it out for him: "the word is spelt like this" [2]. Marnanel (talk) 15:05, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Anecdotally, at least, in American English the use of a trailing "t" instead of "ed" seems to be associated with verbs whose present tense has a long "e" sound and the past tense has a short "e" sound: deal, dealt; feel, felt; keep, kept; kneel,knelt; sleep,slept; weep, wept; etc. However, there's also dwell, dwelt - although that's not such a common verb anymore. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:13, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

With weep, keep, and sleep, the voicelessness is triggered by the /p/, though you may be right that the orthographic use of t is associated with the vowels. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 19:12, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Also dream, dreamt. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:59, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Some of those words we hear both ways. I've heard "dreamed" frequently, "dreamt" is maybe more poetic. And maybe I've heard kneeled. But not feeled, keeped, etc. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:40, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

There's also Spelt, the grain. 67.51.38.51 (talk) 16:35, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Leaped, leapt, lept. But not sleeped or steept or stept. —— Shakescene (talk) 20:59, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Lept? Really? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:25, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Leapt, actually. Leaped is given as the preferred, and leapt is also given. And of course it's pronounced lept. English drives non-native speakers crazy. It's like a language with its own built-in IAR. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:17, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Also, pwn becomes "pwned" or "pwnt". ~AH1^(TCU) 23:54, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

One wonders why words like "slipped", "slapped", "slopped", "stopped", "kissed", "missed", "bossed", et al, which are pronounced with a final /t/, are not spelt "slipt", "slapt", "slopt", "stopt", "kist", "mist", "bost" etc. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 00:13, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Of your list, at least two ("slopt" and "stopt") have been used, with "stopt" having been common into the nineteenth century. Algebraist 00:20, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

And many are spelt with that style in Scots translations, i.e. kilt for killed. Steewi (talk) 00:29, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

... and also in dialects of Northern England. Kist is sometimes retained poetry. Dbfirs 23:03, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Mean becomes meant (pronounced "ment"). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:04, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Antithetical opposites

Consider this pair of sentences:

While both are notable, she is far/much more widely known than he is

While both are notable, he is far/much less widely known than she is.

There, 'more' can be converted to its normal opposite 'less', and vice-versa, without breaching idiom. That's because 'more' and 'less' are being used to create the comparative of the adverb 'widely' (or possibly of the adjective 'widely(-)known'; let's not quibble).

But compare:

While both are notable, she is far/much better known than he is, with

While both are notable, he is far/much <???> known than she is.

We don't use the word 'worse' in this situation, but 'less'. And if we started out with 'less', it would not become 'more', but 'better'. In my idiolect, anyway.

Are there other cases where the standard opposite (good/bad, better/worse, more/less ...) simply does not work and we have to know what the idiomatic expression is? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:55, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

"Lesser" known, probably, although that fits better with "greater". "Not as well" known. Which brings up, do you feel "good" or do you feel "well"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:21, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Do you really say so-and-so is far or much lesser known than someone else? That sounds pretty wrong to me. Without the 'much', lesser would fit ok. But once the 'much' enters the picture, it would have to be something weird like "much more lesser known' to be able to use 'lesser' at all. No? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 22:49, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Maybe "much less known" or "lesser known". Less likely "much lesser known", as that's like saying something is "more better" than something else. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:31, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

speech act theory; perlocutionary act

is a Perlocutionary act (or p. effect?) identical with the intended effect or with the actual effect of the utterance? A perlocutionary act (or perlocutionary effect) is a speech act, as viewed at the level of its psychological consequences in Perlocutionary act seems to mean actual effect. However, I seem to remember that someone important (Searle?) meant rather intended effect. What is the common use? --92.225.74.11 (talk) 22:56, 15 January 2010 (UTC)