Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 February 20

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February 20

What is this sound?

Is there a linguistic term for the sound articulated as follows?: You stick out your tongue slightly through pursed lips, then retract it rapidly, creating a little "thwok" sound. Does this sound exist in any known languages? 69.111.79.123 (talk) 05:27, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't believe such a sound has been attested in any known language. Its manner of articulation is closest to that of a click, since the sound is generated by suction. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 05:35, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

69.111.79.123 -- I don't think that sound is very likely to be used as part of speech, since speech is uttered generally while you're breathing out (with relatively brief interruptions), and that sound doesn't seem to be very compatible with breathing out... AnonMoos (talk) 18:17, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

That's not necessarily a reason for such a sound to be unlikely. Plenty of languages have implosive consonants, and click consonants also don't necessarily have outward airflow either; those sounds are not "incompatible with breathing out". If there is any reason for a sound like this to be unlikely, it would be the difficulty of moving the articulators (tongue and lips) in such a weird way; but, then again, some languages have labiodental flaps that are just as articulatorily difficult. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 22:39, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Those sounds involve a highly localized interruption or partial reversal of outward airflow, but "rapidly retracting the tongue back from between pursed lips" would seem to be more compatible with breathing in than breathing out. You're right that the sound is most comparable to clicks among speech sounds, though... AnonMoos (talk) 00:48, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

If you want to give it a name, a linguolabial click would be appropriate. I suspect it sounds something like a bilabial click or a dental click (i.e. the tsk-tsk sound). It isn't recorded in any known language, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be possible. The human vocal tract can make many sounds that aren't used linguistically. Steewi (talk) 01:18, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Why do you only suspect it sounds like these? Have you not tried it, or is it that you'd want to record and analyse the sound to be sure? To my ear, the sounds are somewhat similar, but clearly distinct (that is, it would be easy to make a distinction between them). In fact, if there were such a language, it could probably distinguish between a few variations on this (based on my extensive experimentation over the last 20 minutes). 86.146.195.12 (talk) 02:00, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Picture

What is the donna?174.3.98.236 (talk) 10:49, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Typo for doona. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 10:52, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

onomatopoeia for fart

I need the spelling of the onomatopoeia for "fart". Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.89.27 (talk) 13:20, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

There have been many differently spelled words representing the sound of a fart, varying by culture and by the individual inventiveness of writers; no one is considered standard. If you require this for a piece of your own writing, you should by all means display your originality by coining your own. Note that the original PIE word from which the English one ultimately descends was itself an onomatopoeia. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 17:34, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. It was actually for an image macro, but I just made up a spelling like you suggested. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.89.27 (talk) 18:00, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

The German word Pfurz for fart seems an onomatopoeia. 195.35.160.133 (talk) 12:50, 24 February 2010 (UTC) Martin.

The German word for fart is Furz, not Pfurz, and it's derived from the same Proto-Indo-European root *perd-/pezd- as a lot of other IE languages' word for fart, which 87.81... above claims to be onomatopoetic. +Angr 08:16, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Meine Ehre heißt Treue

I've seen two German>English translations of the SS motto "Meine Ehre heißt Treue":

• "My honor is loyalty" (N.B. - "Honor" and "Loyalty" are upper case on the page)
• "My honor is called loyalty"

Which, or otherwise, is the better rendition? (for the caption of a museum exhibit displaying an artifact bearing this inscription) -- Deborahjay (talk) 17:59, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

The verb "heißen" is most commonly used to identify the name of someone or something ("Ich heiße Paul" = "My name is Paul"/"I am Paul"/"I am called Paul"). I believe the most common literal translation would be "is called", so "My honor is called loyalty" is probably the most accurate literal translation. But the sense of the phrase is more along the lines of "The name of my honor is Loyalty." One of the difficulties is that German capitalizes all nouns, proper and not, so it can be difficult to distinguish word-as-word from word-as-name. To me, "Meine Ehre heißt Treue" is a little more assertive than either "My honor is called loyalty" or "My honor is loyalty", though if I had to pick, I pick the latter (but I might capitalize Loyalty, though). -- 174.21.247.23 (talk) 19:00, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Another way to translate heißen is "to mean". I think the best way to capture the sense of this motto is something like "For me, honor means loyalty". Marco polo (talk) 20:38, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

That doesn't work, since "mein" does not mean "for me", but "my". The IP editor above is correct; "My honor is called loyalty" and "My honor is loyalty" are both good translations. I also prefer the second choice, in analogy to the motto "Glauben heißt gehorchen" (to believe is to obey). (But I wouldn't capitalize "Loyalty"; it would never occurred to me to see the word as a name here.) The one thing that really baffles me is why there is the word "mein" to begin with. The Nazis aren't exactly knows for stressing individualism, and loyalty was something they demanded from everyone, not just from the SS, so why didn't they just simply say "Ehre heißt Treue"? And they loved 3-word mottos! Imagine if they had written "Meine Arbeit macht frei"! — Sebastian 20:14, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

IMO, the idea of "meine" is to stress that "Yes, there are some people in this world who define honour as something else than loyalty to Adolf Hitler. But not us!" Also, "meine" makes the statement more personal and individual, and you were supposed to love Hitler and Germany with all of your personal and individual soul. You can call this "individualism", but it's also a renunciation of individualism in the sense of thinking for yourself or having any values outside of your boss. --91.148.159.4 (talk) 00:11, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Good points; I can agree with this interpretation. — Sebastian 03:21, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Portuguese words

Are Abantesma, Abentesma, Avantasma, Aventesma real Portuguese word? Are they currently in use? What's their exact meaning? --151.51.29.238 (talk) 18:27, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

The first of these is in Portuguese Wiktionary, and is defined as "alma penada; fantasma". I take "alma" to mean soul and "fantasma" to mean "phantasm", i.e "spectre" (but I don't know what "penada" is - neither "penada" nor "penar" is in the Wiktionary). The other three are not in Wiktionary. --ColinFine (talk) 19:42, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Penar means "to suffer, grieve". I don't speak Portuguese, but it sounds as though abantesma means "ghost". Marco polo (talk) 20:46, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Probably means "suffering soul" or "punished soul"--Dpr (talk) 21:48, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

These links suggest the word also has a figurative use, as in someone exaggeratedly big or frightening, someone whose unexpected appearance causes discomfort. Apparently the word is a variant (-s?) of fantasma a phantom. -- the Great Gavini 22:10, 21 February 2010 (UTC)