Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 April 15

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April 15

Use of to

What's going on grammatically when someone says "I couldn't help but to dance", instead of "I couldn't help but dance"? 149.169.127.65 (talk) 04:08, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Variation in using a long infinitive where others would use a short infinitive. Doubt that there's any meaning difference. AnonMoos (talk) 05:04, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

It sounds "foreign" to me, but the long infinitive is almost as common as the short in a Google search. I would prefer to say "I couldn't help dancing". Perhaps there are regional preferences? Dbfirs 08:37, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

It's a fairly common American colloquialism, especially among the rural, although at this hour I'm having trouble coming up with any specific examples. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:00, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree that this is a common form in American English, and I think not just in rural areas. My sense is that the form without to is much more common in speech. I suspect that to is an attempt at a more "proper" form and therefore more likely to show up in writing (analogously to going to versus gonna). Marco polo (talk) 14:05, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Probably a mistaken attempt. Google Books has only three examples of "help but to dance", all in the last fifteen years, but over three hundred examples of "help but dance" spanning a long period. This suggests that the long infinitive is a regionalism used by mistake in formal English (since the examples are not direct speech). Dbfirs 20:29, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I think the addition of the 'to' may depend on what comes before that clause. I can't currently articulate any sort of rule here, but if I prefaced that clause with, "She looked so eager," I probably wouldn't follow it with, "I couldn't help but to dance"--I'd probably say, "I couldn't help but dance (with her)." On the other hand, I might certainly say, "The music was so wonderful, I couldn't help but to dance!" Staplovich (talk) 21:15, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Italian pronunciations

Resolved

 – rʨanaɢ (talk) 15:08, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

(In IPA if possible, please! And yes, I know some of these sentences are ungrammatical.)

• Gianni sua madre lo ha madre lo ha sempre apprezzato.
• Il tuo libro, lo ho comprato.
• NESSUNO ho visto.
• Ecco un uomo a cui IL PREMIO NOBEL dovrebbero dare.
• A chi il premio nobel dovrebbero dare?
• daranno
• Il libro, a Gianni, domani, glielo darò senz'altro.
• Credo che a Gianni, QUESTO, domani gli dovremmo dire.
• Penso, a Gianni, di dovergli parlare.

Grazie! rʨanaɢ (talk) 06:24, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

• dʒanni ˈsua ˈmadre 'lo a ˈmadre 'lo a ˈsɛmpre apprɛtˈtsato
• ˈil ˈtuo ˈlibro 'lo o komˈprato
• nesˈsuno o visto
• ˈɛkko un ˈwɔmo a ˈkui ˈil ˈprɛmjo noˈbɛl dovrebbero ˈdare (I'm not sure about dovrebbero)
• A 'ki il ˈprɛmjo noˈbɛl dovrebbero 'dare —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.51.15.200 (talk) 08:58, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
• ˈil ˈlibro a dʒanni do'mani ˈʎelo daˈrɔ 'sɛntsaltro
• 'kredo 'ke a dʒanni 'kwesto do'mani ʎli dovremmo 'dire (again, not sure about dovremmo)
• 'penso a dʒanni 'di doverʎli par'lare

If you need IPA for Italian words, you could use this link [1]
In correct Italian they would sound something like:

• Sua madre ha sempre apprezzato Gianni.
• Ho comprato il tuo libro.
• Non ho visto nessuno (OMG! Double negation!)
• Ecco un uomo a cui dovrebbero dare il premio Nobel.
• A chi dovrebbero dare il premio Nobel?
• Daranno :-)
• Domani darò senz'altro il libro a Gianni.
• Credo che domani dovremmo dire questo a Gianni.
• Penso di dover parlare a Gianni. (doverGLI is a repetition)

--151.51.15.200 (talk) 08:21, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, everyone. rʨanaɢ (talk) 15:08, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I think some of those stressed vowels (apprezzAto etc.) should be long, phonetically. Just something theoretical I read about Italian, I don't speak it.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 15:02, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Expeditious expeditions

The words 'expedite', 'expeditious' and 'expeditiously' all have to do with getting something done quickly. The noun 'expedition' can also be use in this sense – Sense 2: he presently exerted his utmost agility, and with surprizing expedition ascended the hill.

But the usual sense of 'expedition' is the one related to exploration. This type of expedition can’t be rushed, because by definition they don’t know in advance what they’re going to encounter out there. That is, expeditions are not normally carried out with expedition.

Do both senses of the word 'expedition' come from the same root expeditio, or does the second meaning, which was historically often about a journey on foot, have any connection with the root –ped? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 09:48, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Apparently, both. That is, both senses come from expeditio, which derives from expedire, which in turn derives from ex and pedem, foot - originally referring to the sending out of an army on foot, lightly equipped and in haste. (I paraphrase from SOED). Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:20, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Even in Latin these words had a wide variety of meanings. It literally means "to free the feet", and could be used in the sense of setting something free, clearing a path through difficult terrain, or preparing anything in general. The verb was also an impersonal verb meaning "it is useful" and we have another English adjective from the same source - expedient. "Expeditio" originally meant a military campaign, and then anything that needed to be prepared or arranged, but at the same time "expeditus" could mean a soldier who could march quickly without too much armour or baggage, as Ghmyrtle said. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:54, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

See http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=expedite&searchmode=none. -- Wavelength (talk) 20:49, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Lovely. Some of these connections never occurred to me before. Thanks for the pedestrian information, everyone.  :) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:27, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Spoken parenthesis in a language

Is there a language with the concept of a parenthesis in the spoken version? For example, a language where there's a formalised means of saying

half a kilogram of (apples and oranges)

or

"stupid westerners" is a prejudiced viewpoint

without relying on intonation or tempo, and without creating any ambiguity? --192.76.7.208 (talk) 13:28, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Do air quotes count? Vimescarrot (talk) 13:41, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

(ec) In English, I often hear the words "quote" and "unquote", as in "quote stupid westerners unquote is a prejudicial term". I also hear it used as "quote unquote stupid westerners is a prejudicial term", which obviously isn't as good, since it's unclear where the quotation ends. Then there's the technique of using the fingers to make "air quotes" while speaking. StuRat (talk) 13:43, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

"Half a kilogram of, for example, apples and oranges" is what the first one means. Both examples could be (and are) (para-)phrased in any language. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 14:19, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

It comes up in mathematics and computer languages, though I suppose based on your example you were thinking of contexts other than those. Speaking mathematically, one way to say x*(x+5) is "x times the quantity x plus 5". The words "the quantity" denote that something after it is in parentheses. It's not entirely unambiguous though since it's not always clear what ends the quantity that is in parenthesis. Thus it really only works with small expressions. Similarly parenthesis can be specified as "open parenthesis" and then "close parenthesis" when one wants to be more precise. (x+3(x-5)) can be read as open parenthesis x plus three times open parenthesis x minus 5 close parenthesis close parenthesis. Since this requires excellent memory and processing for anything but the smallest expressions, it usually requires writing the expression at the same time. The open and close parenthesis thing is actually pretty rare and more often people will specify a combination like x times the quantity x plus 5 in parenthesis or some other phrase such as "with parenthesis around the x plus five" if it is said after. - Taxman ^Talk 18:26, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I will use "paren" and "end paren" when conveying some written material over the phone, to someone who writes it down at the other end. StuRat (talk) 19:05, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Victor Borge made a valiant attempt to introduce Phonetic Punctuation, but it has not as yet been widely adopted. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 18:42, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Mark Antony

Why is he not solely referred to by his Latin name, Marcus Antonius, like other Romans ? StuRat (talk) 13:36, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

You mean like Pliny, Ovid, Horace, Tully (to us old-fashioned sorts), Livy, ... ? Seriously, though, I'm pretty sure that Shakespeare had something to do with it. Deor (talk) 13:44, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm not. Even Chaucer referred to Romans by their English names, and I bet he wasn't the first either. It used to be very common for people to have different names in different languages; nowadays the Pope is just about the only person whose name still gets translated depending on what language he's being referred to in. +Angr 13:56, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I have different names depending on language. My German name is Ä. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 17:39, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I thought everyone called him Benedict? --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 14:13, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Mouse over some of the interlanguage links at Pope Benedict XVI and you'll see they don't. The French call him Benoît, the Italians Benedetto, the Portuguese Bento, and so on. +Angr 14:58, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Or Benedictus, or Benedetto, etc. Look at the interwikis along the side of the Benedict XVI article:

an	Benedet
frp	Benêt
ast	Benedictu
ca	Benet
cy	Bened
de	Benedikt
es	Benedicto
ext	Beneditu
fr	Benoît
ga	Beinidict
gl	Bieito
it	Benedetto
ht	Benwa
la	Benedictus
hu	Benedek
mt	Benedettu
oc	Beneset
pt	Bento

etc. etc. -- AnonMoos (talk) 15:01, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I know that Shakespeare wasn't the first; nevertheless, I suspect that his usage ensured the subsequent almost universal use (in English) of the Anglicized form in this particular case. Deor (talk) 14:52, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

John Wycliff used "August" and "Tiberie", but those didn't stick...I wonder if Gibbon had anything to do with it, since the Decline and Fall was extremely popular. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:39, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure neither Shakespeare nor Wycliff innovated or exercised any significant influence on this; this practice must have been the original one, probably dating from Anglo-Saxon times. Dropping or "translating" the Latin endings was a very common practice throughout Europe in the Middle Ages. Marcus Antonius is also Marco Antonio in Italian, Spanish and Portuguese, Marc Antoniu in Romanian, Marc Antoine in French, Mark Antonij in Russian, Bulgarian and Slovene, Marko Antonije in Serbo-Croatian. At least for Russian and Bulgarian, I can vouchsafe that -us and -os are always dropped from Roman and Greek names to this day.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 14:43, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

And also, the Pope is not an exception. Modern ecclesiastical names are still supposed to be "translated" - they are in fact "supranational" and to the extent that they have a "true" form, it is the Latin one. Saints' and biblical and classical figures' names always have their regional variants. Translations and official Latin versions were also proper for Christian monarchs' names in general until recently - any king by the (Latin) name of Carolus was Carlo, Charles, Karl etc., any Ludovicus was Ludovico, Louis, Ludwig, etc., and Johannes was Giovanni, John, Jean, etc..--91.148.159.4 (talk) 14:57, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Right. Hence we have Queen Margrethe II of Denmark but her 15th-century predecessor Margaret I of Denmark. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:23, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

And King Juan Carlos of Spain instead of John Charles, and his son, Felipe, Prince of Asturias instead of Philip. Woogee (talk) 23:25, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Right, in contrast to 18th century monarchs Charles III of Spain and Philip V of Spain.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 23:53, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

OK, thanks all. StuRat (talk) 01:53, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Looking for (free) Coptic and/or Aramaic translation

As for Coptic, I was recently trying to decipher a word on an icon of St Anthony, and a friend of mine found a 300-year old Coptic-Latin dictionary that was available online through google books (http://books.google.com/books?id=iE4GAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA61#v=onepage&q&f=false). But this was a cumbersome and still opaque means of translation. And as for Aramaic, the only sites I've found have been pay-for-translation.

Any help or information would be most welcome.

Staplovich (talk) 21:07, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

What's the word? Someone here is bound to know a bit of Coptic or Aramaic. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:13, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, the original word was (English transliteration:) "Pinisht". Some digging around at the aforementioned dictionary yielded two independent words: "Pi", a masculine article, and "Nisht", meaning great (Image:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:StAnthony.jpg). This translation makes perfect sense, as St Anthony is often referred to as "Anthony the Great". But my question is really broader--though I found a translation for this one word, I'd like to find a resource that I could use in the future for this sort of thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Staplovich (talk • contribs) 21:25, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Ask your local orthodox rabbi - most of them have significant experience of translating Aramaic. --Dweller (talk) 12:44, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

I've seen quite a few Aramaic and Syriac dictionaries online (I'm sure there are Coptic ones, too). Google.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 14:32, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

There are images from W.E. Crum's Coptic dictionary here or here. I'm not sure about Aramaic, but I know that older dictionaries would have called it "Chaldean" or "Chaldee". There seem to be a few on Google Books. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:11, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

And there is some more modern stuff such as [2], [3], [4]. Some nice oldies: [5], [6].--91.148.159.4 (talk) 00:15, 17 April 2010 (UTC)