Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 June 4

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June 4

Readerly, writerly and painterly

The Pleasure of the Text talks about "readerly" and "writerly" texts, essentially meaning readable and writable. I've seen the word writerly used in other senses, e.g. James VI and I was the most writerly of British monarchs (see footnote 7), meaning that he simply wrote more than any other British monarch. It isn't any kind of commentary on the quality of whatever he wrote, just the quantity, so I'm not sure why we can't say it more simply than that. Anyway, that's an issue for that page, not here. The form also extends to painterly.

It's an odd development, as it adds an –ly to a noun to turn it into an adjective, while having the appearance of an adverb. Can we use words such as doctorly, editorly, architectly, composerly, prestidigitatorly, psychotherapistly, gynaecologistly ... , or is this confined to writers, readers and painters? And if so, why? -- JackofOz (talk) 00:48, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

We have kingly, queenly, princely, fatherly, motherly, brotherly, sisterly, manly, womanly, husbandly, wifely, godly, priestly, fleshly, heavenly, earthly, timely, beastly, courtly, hourly, daily, weekly, fortnightly, monthly, quarterly, yearly, stately, portly, neighborly, friendly, and cowardly. -- Wavelength (talk) 01:09, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

How true. Thanks. I guess the point of my question, then, was about adding -ly to the names of specific professions or occupations, and I note that "priest" can be added to the list. But what about bishop, pope, cook, mechanic, check-out chick ...? -- JackofOz (talk) 01:51, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

We have beggarly, deathly, gentlemanly, gentlewomanly, ghostly, gingerly, lordly, maidenly, mannerly, masterly, matronly, miserly, nightly, partly, saintly, and scholarly.

There are other words (badgerly, bankerly, blizzardly, butcherly, chandlerly, choicely, churchly, citizenly, clerkly, courtierly, dancerly, daughterly, drumly, duskly, friarly, hostly, knightly, lawyerly, loverly, martyrly, nymphly, painterly, panderly, pastorly, patronly, princessly, readerly, sailorly, silverly, soldierly, sonly, spinsterly, teacherly, townly, traitorly, vicarly, virginly, vixenly, winterly, wizardly, workmanly, writerly, and yeomanly), but I have not verified them. -- Wavelength (talk) 04:43, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

To me, the thing with those "profession + ly" words is that it invites the listener/reader to draw on stereotypes or their own ideas about the profession. So if someone tells me someone else is "priestly", the mental process for me goes something like: think of a Catholic priest tending to his parishoners, praying, generally being pious and religious, etc. Apply those characteristics to the person being described, and voila "Oh, you mean (s)he's like that". Now, that may or may not be the same connotation the speaker/writer had in mind, but at least when you say "priest", people generally know what you're talking about. If someone was to tell me someone else was "check-out-chickly," the image I conjure up in my own head could be vastly different from the one the speaker had in his/her own. So, yeah, you could create an adjective "check-out-chickly", but because there's more ambiguity for what connotations are associated with "check-out chick", it probably wouldn't be very useful. Dgcopter (talk) 16:58, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

There are priestly garments and priestly activities, garments and activities of or related to a priest or to priests.
See wikt:priestly. -- Wavelength (talk) 17:26, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

See also wikt:User:Msh210/Sandbox.—msh210℠ 19:17, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

This is more or less a guess, but I think painterly relates to what are considered "inherent" properties of the materials and the techniques of painting. I think this might relate to a theory called medium specificity as applied to painting. Medium specificity, according to our article, was popularized by Clement Greenberg. Painterly, according to our article, was popularized by Heinrich Wölfflin. Bus stop (talk) 19:38, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

@Msh210: Many of those examples are not what I'd consider "wordly" words. :) -- JackofOz (talk) 22:46, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Cousin's Daughter

What would my cousin's daughter be in relation to me? I know that my brother's daughter is my niece. So what would my cousin's daughter be? --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 14:45, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

It would be your cousin, once removed. See cousin. Friday (talk) 14:47, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

(EC) In one word terminology, she is also a cousin. Being more specific, if the mother is your first cousin, the daughter is your first cousin once removed. LadyofShalott 14:47, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

There is a chart at Cousin. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:24, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

corn/maize

In the US, it is called corn, in the UK, it is maize. Is US popcorn still called popcorn in the UK? 65.121.141.34 (talk) 16:36, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

The article en:Popcorn has interlanguage links to cs:Popcorn (Czech language), da:Popcorn (Danish language), de:Popcorn (German language), fr:Pop-corn (French language), is:Poppkorn (Icelandic language), it:Pop corn (Italian language), he:פופקורן (Popqorn) (Hebrew language), lb:Popcorn (Luxembourgish), nl:Popcorn (voedsel) (Dutch language), ja:ポップコーン (Poppukōn) (Japanese language), no:Popkorn (Norwegian language), pl:Popcorn (Polish language), ru:Попкорн (Popkorn) (Russian language), fi:Popcorn (Finnish language), sv:Popcorn (Swedish language), uk:Попкорн (Popkorn) (Ukrainian language), and yi:פאפקארן (Popqarn) (Yiddish language). -- Wavelength (talk) 17:56, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

How do any of those help? Anyway, this article suggests they do call it popcorn, and that it can be served cold and sweet as well. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:29, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Popcorn is also a type of yarn. Bus stop (talk) 18:33, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

(e/c x 2) Popcorn is still popcorn in the UK. The term "corn" however is often used as a catch-all for various cereals in general conversation. --Kateshortforbob 18:35, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

And yes, more often than not is is sweet and cold/room temperature (and stale...yuck), when bought in cinemas. --Kateshortforbob 18:35, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

There is also something called the popcorn stitch in knitting, not necessarily involving popcorn yarn. Wikipedia needs articles on Popcorn stitch as well as on Popcorn yarn. Bus stop (talk) 18:39, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

It certainly used to be the case that 'corn' in Britain meant any kind of grain, and so (because of its prevalence) usually 'wheat'. But now that most of the population have no experience of farming, and little of unprepared food, I suspect that this is no longer the case. The most familiar forms of 'corn' to most people now are 'popcorn', 'sweet corn' and 'corn flakes' - all of which are maize (though I'm not at all sure that most people would realise that they have anything to do with each other). So yes, we have popcorn, which for most people is cold; usually sweetened, though not always; and bears no obvious relationship to any kind of grain, still less to sweet corn. --ColinFine (talk) 23:31, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

In the UK, the word "corn" isn't used much (and when it is, it is rather ambiguous). "Sweet corn" refers to the food eaten by humans, "maize" generally refers to a variety of the same basic plant that is used for animal fodder. --Tango (talk) 00:16, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

In German it is Popcorn because they could not make "Puffmais" stick. (Not for lack of trying.) sweet corn (on the cob or kernel) is Zuckermais or just Mais. BTW The standard variety of popcorn sold in Germany used to be sweetened with sugar. (not salty!) 8-o 71.236.26.74 (talk) 03:00, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

According to de:Popcorn, Popcorn refers to the food in German, while Puffmais refers to the variety of corn/maize used for making popcorn. +Angr 16:05, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Then someone forgot to tell the people who labeled those sealed plastic bags of the sugary (yuck) stuff my aunt bought back in the 70s. It was room temperature and definitely already popped. Their de:Puffreis rice crispies, which came in rainbow colors, were quite edible by comparison and there they still use that word. (And no, it wasn't used as a brand name.) Usage changed AFAIK when American movie style popcorn made inroads into the German market.71.236.26.74 (talk)

William Cobbett, when he made an attempt to popularise the growing of maize in England, called it ‘Cobbett’s corn’. He largely recommended feeding it to your pig—he was rather insistent that you had one—but his wife used to serve it at home in various forms and after his death produced a pamphlet of recipes. I don’t recall that popcorn was one of them, however. —Ian Spackman (talk) 18:11, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Did she ever serve corn on the Cobbett? Deor (talk) 21:59, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

"Bloß"

What exactly is the meaning and usage of the German language word "bloß"? From context, I have deduced it's merely an intensifier, for example to say something happened right now, or something is only something, or something just needs to be, without further need for explanation. However, when I have studied German, I have never encountered the word at all in the textbooks. I have only heard it on German TV and seen it in German comics. Can someone, preferably a native German speaker, explain this in detail? JIP | Talk 18:01, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

See wikt:en:bloß. -- Wavelength (talk) 18:14, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

The colloquial adverbial usage is the most common and is almost certainly what you're referring to. -Elmer Clark (talk) 21:21, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Almost, but one of the "intensifier" uses doesn't translate to merely or only. The closest I can come up with is don't you dare
"Laß da bloß die Finger von" >> "don't you dare touch that"
Gib bloß nicht auf.>> "Don't you dare give up".
Another would be an emphatic do as in
Schreib dir daß bloß auf. >> Do write that down.
"Zahl bloß deine Miete rechtzeitig." >>"Do pay your rent on time."
Zieh bloß den Wecker auf >>Do remember to wind up the alarm clock. BTW regionally this use is colloquially also combined with "ja"
Daß du mir bloß ja nicht auf den nassen Fuäboden trittst.>> Don't you dare step on to my wet floor.71.236.26.74 (talk) 02:53, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Are you sure that the meaning is as strong as "Don't you dare"? That is an expression that English speakers would find pretty hostile. Normally it would be used only during a verbal fight or shouting match. I am not a native German speaker, but I would tend to translate bloß as "just". In the last case that would be "Just don't step on my wet floor." Is the tone really more belligerent than that? Marco polo (talk) 16:43, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps a better way to translate bloß when used as an intensifier would be "Be sure to..." or "Be sure not to..."? Marco polo (talk) 16:45, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

See bloß in 104 articles in the English Wikipedia. -- Wavelength (talk) 17:51, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

More accurately, my search for bloß reported 104 results, but some of the articles contain words with similar spellings.

-- Wavelength (talk) 18:06, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

We're getting deep into cultural usage, register and situation here. I don't know about your mom, but the (usually lower class) German moms who gave that waring about the wet floor would probably not find their frustration and exasperation translated adequately with a "be sure not to" This is "counting to ten, last warning or else" kind of language. German tends to be a bit harsh to (American) English ears. I've had a couple of British and Irish colleagues and they ranged somewhere in the middle between Germans and Americans with regard to acceptability of what our family would have called rude language. (Terry Pratchett indicated a similar observation about BE/AE in the preface to Good Omens). I'd say hostile doesn't quite describe this use of "bloß", warning and (utter) exasperation would more aptly relate the feelings I observed. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 18:52, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Most of the 104 were names. I did find a couple of examples where I'd chose "ever" as equivalent English emphasis: Was ist denn bloß mit Willi los?>>Whatever is wrong with Willi? More colloquial What the heck is wrong with Will? -- Herr Meyer, Herr Meyer, wo bleibt denn bloß mein Reiher >> Mr. Meyer, Mr. Meyer where ever is my heron? -- Was soll aus dem Jungen bloss werden. (What's to Become of the Boy? 1981) >>more emphatic What ever is to become of the boy?
There were two examples where I'd apply a modified version of what I had above: Freu dich bloß nicht zu früh>>Dont you cont your chickens before they are hatched. -- The next one came with an explanation of the situation the phrase was used in. Someone gave a record he didn't like to some friends with the comment: "Aber spielt das Zeug bloß nicht, wenn ich da bin.">>"Don't you play that stuff while I'm here." In most cases the word can be left out in the translation without changing the meaning, it just changes the tone. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 20:46, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

One book includes the word bloß among German modal particles, which another book calls "flavoring particles". This does not answer the original question, but it provides more search terms. -- Wavelength (talk) 01:37, 9 June 2009 (UTC)