Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 July 10

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July 10

Formatting quandry

Bertrada of Laon has dates of "(710/27 - July 12, 783)", which, based on the edit comments of Feb. 5, 2009, seem to indicate that her year of birth is some time between 710 and 727. However, it took me a little while to figure that out. Can somebody come up with something better than "(born between 710 and 727 - July 12, 783)"? Clarityfiend (talk) 06:05, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

It could be that she was either born in 710 or 727. I'd do (710 or 727 – July 12, 783) if that were the case. There are some Pharaohs with dates like that, I believe. However, the source on the article's page lists 726 as the year of birth, and the French WP page lists c. 720 ("vers 720"), which is probably better here. -- Flyguy649 ^talk 06:15, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

In academic jargon you often see "710 x 727", but I don't know if that would make any more sense here. Adam Bishop (talk) 20:15, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Guess the first thing to do then is to ask the editor what was meant. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:53, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Though it loses a little of the original meaning, you could also go with (fl. 727 - July 12, 783). Grutness...wha? 11:32, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

How about ca.710-727 to July 12, 783 ? DOR (HK) (talk) 03:29, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

kick smb. for a mug

What can the phrase mean: "He spent the next ten years kicking himself for a mug"? 88.84.200.2 (talk) 12:00, 10 July 2009 (UTC)Seaweed71 (talk) 12:04, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

It probably means "for [being] a mug", i.e. for being a fool.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 12:18, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

This is meaning 19a in the OED: In the character of, in the light of, as equivalent to; esp. to introduce the complement after verbs of incomplete predication, e.g. to have, hold, etc. (see those verbs), where as or as being may generally be substituted. Other examples: "I know for a fact that you have taken me for a fool." Algebraist 13:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

It is not clear. He looked like a fool or was cheated or what? It is about a man who had taken decision to send his daughter to the expensive school and after that ... Thank you, nevertheless.Seaweed71 (talk) 19:06, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I read it as 'for the next ten years he was harsh with himself, believing that he had let himself be taken advantage of'. There are two separate idioms here 'kicking himself' and '(being) a mug'. --ColinFine (talk) 00:13, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Latin phrase

Are there any Latinists available? I'd like to know what nil quae feci means. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kitefox (talk • contribs) 13:40, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

It's nice to see that The Prisoner of Zenda is still finding readers. I'd translate it "What I've done is nothing." Deor (talk) 13:50, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

See zero copula (that forgets the case of Latin however, where the ellipsis of the copula is quite common). --pma (talk) 18:55, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

It's good to see a sensible answer to this - I'm afraid my first thought was "no shit!" :) Grutness...wha? 11:34, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

With or without?

"Their relationship is often subject to press speculation of either a possible engagement or breakup" - I think there should be an "a" before breakup, shouldn't there? Is there something wrong with this sentence other than that? Shahid • ^Talk2me 13:58, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

If the talk is speculation, then the engagement or breakup are assumed to be possible, so "possible" is redundant. Are relationships "subject to" speculation? How about "There has been frequent press speculation about an engagement or a breakup"? -- JackofOz (talk) 14:25, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Here I have to make it clear then. It is about a couple who separated recently. The entire sentence is "Their relationship was frequently reported on in the media, and was often subject to press speculation of either a possible engagement or break-up" - the second part is somewhat problematic. It can't be "has been" since their relationship is over, and frequent cannot be used as it is already used in the first part of the sentence. Shahid • ^Talk2me 14:32, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

How about "Their relationship was often reported on by the media, with frequent speculation about an engagement or a break-up."? Algebraist 14:43, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

How about: Previous media speculation concerning reconciliation or breakup continues at this time. Bus stop (talk) 14:44, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

You can't speculate about a breakup that's already happened. "Continues at this time" can be more concisely rendered as "continues". All in all, I like Algebraist's version better. -- JackofOz (talk) 15:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

JackofOz, Algebraist, Bus stop, thank you very much for the help! Shahid • ^Talk2me 15:07, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Sh's second question has been answered, but not the first. The construct "either ___ or ___" properly requires independent and grammatically equivalent forms in the two blanks, so Sh is right to say that if "either a P or a Q" is what's meant, "either a P or Q" is not really a correct replacement for it. The force of the article before P can't be distributed to Q. However, in speech or informal writing, people just don't worry about this. Similarly, in this example:

1. either it's on the left or it's on the right

2. it's either on the left or it's on the right

3. it's either on the left or on the right

4. it's on either the left or on the right

5. it's on either the left or the right

numbers 1, 3, and 5 are all correct, but people will also say 2 or 4 in speech or informal writing. --Anonymous, 04:56 UTC, July 11, 2009.

novel characters

How do novelists come up with the names of their characters? Do they just randomly open a phone book, or do they just make up a name that sounds interesting? Googlemeister (talk) 14:41, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure a great many techniques are used. Do you have any particular novelist in mind? Algebraist 14:43, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

This link provides some answers about J.K. Rowling's characters... Dismas|^(talk) 14:46, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I guess I was thinking mainly of John Grisham, and Tom Clancy. Googlemeister (talk) 14:55, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Whatever technique they use, the ultimate test is that they must "feel/sound right". For example - and with great respect to any so-named people out there who may well be superbly qualified for the office - I could hardly imagine a novelist writing about a U.S. President called "Fred Gerk". On the other hand, Joyce Cary created a character in The Horse's Mouth with the completely unlikely name of "Gulley Jimson". I squirm uncomfortably whenever I hear it. -- JackofOz (talk) 15:16, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Fred Gerk may not be the most attractive of names, but it's better than Peter Faeces.--Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:46, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Or Sheila Dikshit for President of India. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:56, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

What is wrong with the name "Fred Gerk?" What about it would make it unsuitable for the name of a fictional U.S. President? Bus stop (talk) 15:58, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't really convey any capacity of leadership (if at all, it does the exact opposite). Gerk, especially when coupled with Fred, sounds blunt and ugly (IMO, and I'm sure I'm not alone - Jack seems to agree with me). In response to the OP's original question, I'm sure many novelists have very different ways of coming up with names. Sometimes they may have been inspired by the name of someone they know or have met. They could pick an uncommon name to give the character some uniqueness, or they could use a common one to make it more believable. —Akrabbim^talk 16:24, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I hardly think that a President Fred Gerk could not be believable and eventually acceptable. It would all depend on the character poured into the name by the novelist. Bus stop (talk) 16:36, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Take a look at List of fictional United States Presidents A-F. There's nothing remotely as uneuphonious as Fred Gerk there. I haven't checked out G-Z. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:50, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

...except, certainly, FXJKHR :P. No such user (talk) 09:01, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I discounted that, for obvious reasons. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:45, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I wonder what happens if I write a story which has a villain with a particular name I make up, say an evil chiroipracter, and I describe him in detail, with several unusual characteristics (red haired, balding, short, fat, limps), then up pops some real world chiropracter with that name who happens to have the physical characteristics, and who then sues me for defamation? Does this happen much? Does the publisher defend the lawsuit? Certainly one could do a Google search to try and rule out there being such a real life person with the fictional name, but I suspect many would be missed. If all characters had common names(Fred Smith) there would be more real world matches, but it would look less like defamation than if the villain had an unusual name (Fred Gerk). I suspect the disclaimer that "All characters and events are fictional" does not always prevail in court. Edison (talk) 16:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Mark Twain named a character Escol Sellers, thinking that it was a name unlikely to be borne by a real person, only to have a man of that name threaten to sue. Twain changed the name in subsequent editions, and a person with the revised name also turned up and objected. See The Gilded Age: A Tale of Today#Plot summary, fourth paragraph. Deor (talk) 17:15, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

In the original radio and book versions of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Adams thought it would be funny to name a real poet as the worst poet on Earth. According to the book of the radio scripts, this person actually objected and the name was changed in all subsequent versions. See List of minor characters from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy#Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings of Greenbridge, Essex.

Isaac Asimov writes in his autobiography In Memory Yet Green about how he named a recurring character in his robot stories, when he was 21. She was a female scientist, which was fairly unusual in those days. But Asimov's graduate advisor at Columbia University was a female scientist he admired: Dr. Mary Caldwell. So he named his character Susan Caldwell. But after submitting the manuscript to Astounding Science Fiction, he realized that he hadn't asked Mary Caldwell if she liked the idea; and apparently he was too apprehensive to do so. He happened to be at Astounding's offices a few days later, and asked the secretary to go through the manuscript and change each instance of the name. To minimize her work in fixing his mistake, he chose the most similar name he could think of, and that is how Susan Calvin was named.

I've read at least one British book where the disclaimer about all the characters being fictional also mentions that they "are placenamed", i.e. all the surnames are names of real places.

Oh, and James Bond was named after a real-life James Bond because Ian Fleming thought the name had the sound he wanted -- and he did ask permission.

So basically the idea is that if you might be using the name of a living person, you get permission or you make sure you can prove you got the name from somewhere else. Of course, the more common the name is, the less likely that someone will make a fuss about it. But this is the sort of thing that the legal departments of publishers and movie studios worry about.

(Incidentally, I think the Humanities Desk would have been a better place for this question.) --Anonymous, 05:30 UTC, July 11, 2009.

Edison, see Small penis rule. —Tamfang (talk) 17:20, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Dorothy L. Sayers got at least some characters' surnames by visiting the place where the novel was going to be set and discovering what surnames were common in the area. She found some unusual names, like Gotobed, that way. +Angr 17:07, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Hotblack Desiato is named for an estate agents. Algebraist 17:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Sometimes the meaning of the name is significant,think of Becky Sharp in Vanity Fair,her surname describes her sharp wits ,or Mr.Knightley in Emma because of his perfect manners...hotclaws 18:51, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

That was very common in the 17th and 18th centuries (sometimes in a very unsubtle and heavy-handed way...) -- AnonMoos (talk) 11:15, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

If I recall correctly a number of the character's surnames in the Simpsons (not a book, sure but the same process) are named after streets around where Matt Groening grew up. Infact the article on him shows that to be the case ny156uk (talk) 22:58, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

On the soap opera All My Children, there used to be a character named Seabone Hunkle. The creator of the soap said she saw the name on a mailbox when she was driving through the US South. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 23:23, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I have no idea how he does it, but Jack Vance has an incredible talent for coming up with odd names that just sound right. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:48, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

And, of course, Charles Dickens is famous for this. --Anonymous, 10:00 UTC, July 11, 2009.

Lord Dunsany is another. —Tamfang (talk) 17:20, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I know it's not a novel, but the creator of the UK Soap Opera "Coronation Street" apparently went round a graveyard in the area in which he had set the series to get the names, so Ena Sharples, Elsie Tanner and Albert Tatlock all existed - but not when the script was written. --TammyMoet (talk) 08:38, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

J.R.R. Tolkien noted that, shortly after the publication of The Lord of the Rings he had received an interesting letter from an actual man named Sam Gamgee. I don't have the page in front of me, but if I remember right, he feared receiving a letter from someone named S. Gollum. Nyttend (talk) 02:35, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Translation into Spanish? Please?

So I'm a student filmmaker working on a script for a zombie movie. I need a line translated into Spanish for me; unfortunately, all the people I know who have studied Spanish have forgotten it, and I know better than to trust Babelfish. So is there any chance at all that someone would be willing to translate the following for me?: "Attention. Do not go to Mexico City. Mexico City is dead. I repeat. Mexico City belongs to the dead." Thank you all very much for hearing me out. --Brasswatchman (talk) 21:49, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

The translation I got from babelfish looks pretty good, to me, unless there are subtleties I'm not aware of: Atención. No vaya a Ciudad de México. Ciudad de México es muerta. Repito. Ciudad de México pertenece a los muertos.. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 23:25, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Wouldn't they use the plural? There should also be a "the", right? "no vayan a la Ciudad de México." My oxford dictionary says that death is indicated with estar, not ser and cities are femininte, so it would be "La Ciudad de México está muerta." I'm not sure how common pertenecer is, but another way of saying it is "es de los muertos." My Spanish is horribly crude, so I could still be missing something, but a slightly more accurate rendition would then be "¡atención! No vayan a la Ciudad de México. La Ciudad de México está muerta. Repito. La Ciudad de México es de los muertos." I remember hearing somewhere that Mexico City is often called "La Ciudad" ("the city") but our article on Mexico City doesn't seem to corroborate that. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 04:59, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I wasn't sure whether singular or plural would work, it would depend on whom the original questioner is addressing. And you're right, la is probably proper here. México is also used for the city, as is D.F. for Distrito Federal. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 05:01, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Not much to add to previous comments. Ciudad de México alone may be used, as far as I know. I would go however for "no vayan al Distrito Federal, etc". Generally speaking, the third person plural would be used, unless the communication is for a sign or banner (which, I assume, is not the case here). 190.1.53.214 (talk) 07:04, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

It also depends on the situation. In Mexico, "el D.F." would be understood, but outside Mexico probably not. Also, is it an official announcement, like at an airport, or is it someone screaming in the street, or whatever? Such subtleties are probably better asked at the Spanish Wikipedia. Maybe here. DirkvdM (talk) 12:53, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Fantastic. Thank you all very much. I really appreciate the help. --Brasswatchman (talk) 18:47, 12 July 2009 (UTC)