Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 October 22

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October 22

word derivation/history

I'm trying to find the origin of the name KENMORE. It appers in a large number of products & places, but I have been unable to find anything on its origin.

Dave, (former student of Kenmore High School) < email removed to prevent spam > —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.235.122.89 (talk) 02:45, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The original Kenmore is in Scotland. The etymology is Scots Gaelic for "large headland". FiggyBee (talk) 03:12, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Since you mention "products", see also Kenmore Appliances. —Tamfang (talk) 03:29, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Spanish translation

Could someone tell me what 'viéndose' means? Google translate returns 'to be', but I don't see where this is coming from- what does it mean? 70.162.28.222 (talk) 04:47, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Coming from ver meaning "to see", when you add the -endo it makes it progressive like english -ing. Se is a direct object for el...so put it all together and roughly you get "he's being seen". Grsz^Review! 05:02, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Or [he is] seeing himself [in the mirror], or he is seeing [=finding] himself [in a difficult position], etc. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 18:46, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Grsz11's statement that "se is a direct object for él is a bit off: the ordinary object form of él is lo, se is the reflexive object, used (for all genders and numbers) when the object is the same as the subject – or when the subject is unspecified; as Grsz11 hints, in Romance languages the reflexive form very often has a passive meaning. Note that viéndose is not a finite verb unless it has an auxiliary (something like está viéndose, "he is being seen"); without that, it would be used in a subclause to show context: "(while or because of) being seen..., he [does something]." —Tamfang (talk) 03:27, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

It could have the meaning "seeing each other" as well. It can be reflexive or mutual. Steewi (talk) 05:11, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Parental warning

In what English words do parents usually tell their children "This is not suitable for you." (E.g. alcoholic beverages, brutal/horror/sensual movies...)? --KnightMove (talk) 09:48, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

"That's for grownups only"? The exact wording and vocabulary probably depends on the age of the children. —Angr 09:52, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, thx. Age? Hmmm... say 8-10 years. --KnightMove (talk) 10:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

"You're too young." "Maybe when you're older." "That's not for children." --bodnotbod (talk) 18:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

"That is not appropriate for you."Thomprod (talk) 16:27, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Writing on Indian Rocket Chandrayaan-1 (Hindi)

In this video http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7680865.stm you can clearly see the writing on the Indian moon rocket. I am pretty sure it says "PSLV C-11" as Pee-es-el-vee then se-11. What I am not sure about is the character used for the "e" of es and el. I would have expected ऐ, but it is clearly something different. What is the character, and why is ऐ not used? Sorry for this ignorant question, my total knowledge of Hindi is from the first two lessons of a teach yourself book.

Also, why give it an English name, take the initials and then represent them phonetically in Devanāgarī? I know this is bordering on a cultural rather than a language question, but why not just name it in Hindi? -- ~~

It's ए, which is /e/, as opposed to ऐ, which is /ɛ/. I'm afraid I can't answer your "why" questions, though. —Angr 10:10, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Here is the image (low res screen shot, fair use) Image:Chandrayaan.jpg. It doesn't look like ए, which would I have thought made "es" "el" sound a bit like "ace ale"! Of course I am so inexperienced with Devanāgarī that I am not familiar with all the alternative forms and styles. -- Q Chris (talk) 10:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, you can't use fair-use images outside of article space, but if you look closely and use a bit of imagination you can see it's ए. You're right about the pronunciation, though; that's why I said I can't answer the "why" part! —Angr 11:03, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, with a bit of imagination I can see it! I will "bend" the rules and leave the image up for a while to see if anyone can answer the "why" -- Q Chris (talk) 11:23, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

As for the 'why' part... it is not necessarily an English 'name'. As you already know, it is the Hindi transliteration of the letters 'PSLV' which is the original name of the rocket. You question begs the counter-question, 'why give it another name when it already has one?'--ChokinBako (talk) 11:14, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I understand that PSLV stands for the English name [Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle]. -- Q Chris (talk) 11:23, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Right, so I'm sure they couldn't really write all that in Hindi on the small space where the sign is, so they opted for the initials - the name of the vehicle.--ChokinBako (talk) 11:36, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

But couldn't they have given it a Hindi name and then labelled it using the initial Devanāgarī characters? Is that something that is done in Hindi? Or could it be "publicity" factors, like giving it a name that is easily usable in the Western press? -- Q Chris (talk) 11:41, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

My contact in Bangalore has told me that acronyms do exist in India, though they use a whole syllable from each word rather than a letter. —Tamfang (talk) 03:11, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes that makes sense because devanagari is syllable based -- Q Chris (talk) 06:55, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

As are most of the scripts used in India. —Tamfang (talk) 01:35, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

That possibly is the reason. I mean, if it's already called Chandrayaan, why not call it Chandrayaan? I see your point.--ChokinBako (talk) 11:45, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

In India, by the way, the language used for scientific studies or research is English, and this is probably the reason why the vehicle has an English name, not just because of Western media. 'Chandrayaan' will be a nickname, like 'Challenger' or whatever for the shuttle. 'PSLV' actually states the purpose of the rocket, and, being scientific, is in English. Also, bear in mind, Hindi is not the only language in India. There are many more, so a lingua franca is needed. English, Hindi, and Sanskrit are the three official languages, with English doubling as the language of higher education. --ChokinBako (talk) 11:57, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I realise that official language is a complex issue in India, Official languages of India shows that it it is not at all clear cut. -- Q Chris (talk) 13:52, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Chandrayaan is the lunar orbiter, whereas PSLV is the rocket which launched it into space. They are not the same thing, that's why they need different names. — Emil J. 13:59, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - that's interesting

Help with a Latin language British title

Am I right in thinking "Rex Britanniae" means king of Britain. If so what is "British monarch" in Latin? Thanks, --217.227.78.76 (talk) 12:39, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you're right about "Rex Britanniae". "British monarch" is presumably "monarchus Britanniae". —Angr 12:55, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Or if you really prefer "British" to "of Britain", "monarchus Britannicus". Adam Bishop (talk) 13:35, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Literally, yes, of course, but it can also depend on the context. When Æthelbald of Mercia styled himself Rex Britanniae, which he did at least once, he meant more by it than his plain title of Rex Merciorum or his bolder one of Rex Suthanglorum. It translated Bretwalda, but the reality of that title was roughly 'King of England'. However, when George I of Great Britain is called Rex Britanniae (or Rex Britanniae et Hiberniae), it translates into English as 'King of Great Britain' (or 'King of Great Britain and Ireland'). Strawless (talk) 15:53, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Latin question 2

What is Edward the Confessor known as in latin? Our latin wikipedia says "Eduardus Confessor", is that correct? What is "The Confessor" in Latin? Thanks for your help! ;) --217.227.73.158 (talk) 14:31, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the Latin Wikipedia is right. Latin has no word for "the", and the English word "confessor" is borrowed directly from Latin. —Angr 14:34, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

What is the Chinese term "金童玉女" in English?

I am a Chinese student whose major is English,and I find it hard to translate this Chinese term into English, If I translate the term word by word, it means "Golden boy and jade girl". The term means that a boy and a girl who can match very well, just like Britney Spears and Justin Timberlake in the late 90s.I beg any great ones who can help me come up with a more native way for this term.Of course, in English.Thank you very much. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eastmanxie (talk • contribs) 14:52, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The most common similar phrases in English would be "made for each other", or "a match made in heaven". I can't think of any English phrases which mirror the Chinese phrase more closely, except possibly to refer to the couple metonymically by the names of famous lovers; Romeo and Juliet, Posh and Becks, etc. FiggyBee (talk) 15:06, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Romeo and Juliet, however, are better known for being star-crossed lovers, so maybe they're not the best example of a golden boy and a jade girl. —Angr 15:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhpas the phrase Soulmate would be an appropriate translation. --Zerozal (talk) 19:17, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

"Golden couple" gets a fair number of ghits. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:47, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I had that thought too. It seems to refer mostly to famous or celebrated couples though (including a lot of sportspeople, with "golden" being less metaphorical than it otherwise might be), rather than to couples who are especially well matched. FiggyBee (talk) 22:54, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Ack. You're right. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:21, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

A common acronym among the fanfiction community is "OTP," One True Pairing, but I'm not sure if it would apply here. bibliomaniac15 22:54, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

In America there is "Ken and Barbie" a reference to dolls--Digrpat (talk) 16:41, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

That usually refers to a couple that is attractive but vapid. —D. Monack ^talk 02:58, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

... and therefore not remotely attractive (except to some people). -- JackofOz (talk) 22:35, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Overlapping subsets

Aloha. I'm trying to reword a phrase in an article that has proven problematic, but my English is not the best. The current wording is of the form "A and B are the two types of C". The intended meaning is, in gonzo set theoretic terms, "For all x, if x is an element of C, x is either an element of A or B", or more precisely "A intersection B is the null set, and A union B is C".

The problem with the original wording e.g. "Big and small are the two types of dogs", is that it's also (roughly) accurate to say "male and female are the two types of dogs". So how do I express the claim "all C's are either A's or B's" in the style of an article lede, i.e. "A and B are____C"? Sorry if this is confusing, any help appreciated. the skomorokh 15:07, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

You could say that Anarcho-capitalism and minarchism (let's use the actual article title, as precise context may make finding an appropriate wording easier) are two major factions within Libertarianism? Two main schools of thought? I don't see how the claim that "All Libertarians are either Anarchists or Minarchists" is important to the article. Just say that these are two major ideas which are in conflict. FiggyBee (talk) 15:52, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The point is that they are exhaustive of libertarianism, not just two factions among others. This is important as it attests to the notability of the topic, which has been in doubt. I appreciate your suggestions, but it's not what I am looking for. Regards, the skomorokh 15:55, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure you can say they are exhaustive of libertarianism. As libertarianism is a broad-reaching political philosophy, there are bound to be many nuanced types of libertarianism out there. To imply that there is only two exact "types" of libertarianism is to make the No true Scotsman fallacy... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 16:12, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I can't claim certainty about the precise connotations of the English words, but I think I have it right: no matter what kind of libertarian you are, you either a)believe the state is morally justified or b)do not. The claim is staked on the law of excluded middle, which if we are going to be Aristotelians about it, allows for no nuance. And on a side note, you are quite the Renaissance admin, thank you! the skomorokh 16:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

How about giving it a different structure altogether? I'd suggest something like: "A fundamental division within libertarian political thought is the division between anarcho-capitalism and minarchism." It would not imply that there may not be other ways of dividing libertarians, but it would convey that this is a meaningful division and not a trivial one. Also it would leave open the question of whether a "third way" is possible, while the text of the article itself would still make it clear that essentially all libertarians are either one or the other.--91.153.157.140 (talk) 18:17, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

You could just as easily state that libertarianism exists on a continuum, with "anarchocapitilism" being at one extreme end, and various states of allowable state-intervention (some of which could be termed "minarchism") along the continuum, all the way towards full state-socialism on the other. You could just as easily state that while some libertarians believe in no-state intervention in any aspect of life; and believe only in pure market forces as regulating social interactions, while others believe in some limited forms of state control. That makes it sound more "either-or". The problem with using obfuscatory terms like "anarchocapitalism" and "minarchism" is that they sound like very narrowly defined terms that refer to small distinct groups, and its the words themselves that hide the real nature of the binary choice: either believing in state intervention or not... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:28, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

It seems from my reading of the articles that "minarchism", rather than being a specific ideology, is a term used by anarchists to describe all libertarians other than themselves. Thus whether it is a useful description - outside anarchist arguments - is debatable. I don't think we're going to come up with anything that would both be satisfactory to skomorokh and address the "problematic" nature of the statement, so perhaps we should just leave it for the article's talk page? FiggyBee (talk) 20:44, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I have known people who described themselves as minarchists – possibly because they were acquainted with Sam Konkin, the flaming anarchocapitalist who (i believe) coined the word! —Tamfang (talk) 03:08, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

how does english sound to others?

I find French a very musical language to listen to (like many others) while German, on the other hand, sounds harsh and forceful (and seemingly well suited to Adolf Hitler's speeches, if I'm allowed to say that, if not, oops, sorry to German speaking folk). How does English sound to outsiders? Are there any typical observations they tend to make? It's been emotional (talk) 18:07, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Braindeadism bargain basement antifascism- Hitler was an Austrian you f***.--Radh (talk) 18:11, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Tru dat, but he did speak The german language. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

He may have been born in Austria, but he had become a German well before but certainly by the time he became Chancellor of Germany in 1933, and even more certainly after Austria was incorporated into Germany in the Anschluss in 1938. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:39, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

It's probably very subjective. For instance, I don't much care for the sound of French, but I do like the sound of German, probably because I speak a little of it. 68.230.71.24 (talk) 20:29, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

To attempt to actually answer the question rather than debating Hitler's nationality; apparently, to other Europeans, the sounds that stand out most are the big rounded vowels ("like talking with a potato in your mouth") and the unrolled r's. So "Rar Rar Rur Rur". To people from other parts of the world, other sounds stand out (generally, the sounds that aren't found in their native language). It's considered quite a rhythmic language, less harsh than German but less flowing than French. Incidentally, Peter Sellers on the Goon Show did a very convincing facsimile of *American* English using the syllable hern. FiggyBee (talk) 21:06, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Yep, it's very subjective. I don't have particular feelings for French, but I find German to be a very musical language - but that's probably because I learned enough German to be able to read poetry in German, and it sounds supreme. As it does in any other language you know well enough, I presume... TomorrowTime (talk) 21:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

You can find a lot of videos of "fake English" on Youtube by searching for it. The results probably depend on the native language of the person who is imitating it, as it will determine what different bits of English they are likely to pick up on and imitate. Steewi (talk) 05:15, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

And german from the south of the country and from Austria is very mellow--Radh (talk) 10:24, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

The question from the OP is about English to others, not German to others, so I'll answer that. Being French, to me English spoken by Brits sounds like it is being spit. English spoken by Americans sound like it is being chewed. Unless it is being sung, it is not particularly musical to my ears. --Lgriot (talk) 12:35, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm getting some unusual images in my head. A little like the Schmidt Sting Pain Index. bibliomaniac15 03:33, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly, one of Mark Twain's complaints in The Awful German Language was that German is too gentle. "Would any man want to die in a battle which was called by so tame a term as a Schlacht? Or would not a consumptive feel too much bundled up, who was about to go out, in a shirt-collar and a seal-ring, into a storm which the bird-song word Gewitter was employed to describe? And observe the strongest of the several German equivalents for explosion – Ausbruch. Our word Toothbrush is more powerful than that." That was in 1880. The wonderful polylingual glossolalia scene in The Court Jester shows that the modern "harsh" perception was well established in 1956. It's pretty easy to guess what caused that change. All I'm saying is, check the mustache on your prototypical German speaker, and watch out for stripy shirts. -- BenRG (talk) 20:06, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Not answering the OP, but BenRG nails it in his edit summary: Symphony_No._9_(Beethoven)#Vocal_parts (and the whole final movement) is one of the most musical bits of language (and pieces of music) I've ever heard. Franamax (talk) 20:59, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

To the French, English tends to sound nasal and quacking. I have read that Russians compare English to whistling and fluting. Rhinoracer (talk) 14:41, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I believe I've heard or read the phrase, "Italian is sung, French is spoken, English is spat, and German is vomited." I've also heard "Spanish is for lovers, French is for diplomats, and English is for Geese." I'm a native English speaker, with only a rudimentary exposure to German, French, Latin, and Inuktitut (roughly in that order and even in German I barely qualify as being a beginner) and I don't think English is a terribly pretty language. Even academic Latin, which is presumably stripped of any beauty it might have had in order to make students hate taking it, has a kind of clipped yet lilting quality to it, almost a specific meter in which it needs to be spoken, that English lacks. Matt Deres (talk) 20:51, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

There's a Polish comedy movie where an airport employee is supposed to make an announcement in Polish and English. Since all of her English vocabulary consists of "mister" and "fank you", she first reads her announcement in Polish and then puts a spoonful of mashed potatoes in her mouth and pretends to talk in English. This should give you an idea what the slurred, gargling language that English is sounds like to Polish ears. As for other languages, German is often compared to a dog's barking in Poland, Czech and Slovak are considered childlishly amusing, while Russian and Italian are among the languages thought to be most melodic and beautiful. — Kpalion^(talk) 14:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Past tense uses of the verb "to text"

Is there agreement on how to use this relatively new verb - meaning "to send a text message" - in the past tense? I say, "I texted him last night," and, "I have texted him already," while most of my acquaintances say, "I text him last night," and "I have text him already." (Of course, I sometimes also say, "I sent him a text last night.") I think people think they can get away without the "ed" because the "t" gives something of an "-ed" sound. But it's nonsensical to me. Your views?86.139.236.224 (talk) 20:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Another argument could be that what they're actually saying is 'texed', past tense of 'tex', which is how they pronounce TXT (possibly without realising). 'kst' is a clumsy combination of sounds. /Coffeeshivers (talk) 20:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Along these lines, it could simply be back-formation; "Text" /tEkst/ gets reinterpreted as "texed", which would be a past-tense form already, making "texted" sound awkward. The Jade Knight (talk) 21:53, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Trying to find an analogous word, I checked a couple of online rhyming dictionaries. I didn't find a verb that rhymed perfectly with text that wasn't already a past participle. The pp of "telex" is "telexed", however. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 22:02, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The American Heritage Dictionary says "texted" (ref). The Cambridge Learners Dictionary doesn't show a past tense. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:57, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

In spoken dialogue, "text" may have become normish, but in formalish writing I don't think you could get away with less than "texted", if only because "text", while it sounds like a past tense (of the verb "to tex"), does not have the form of a past tense (it lacks an -ed). -- JackofOz (talk) 22:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I use "sms" as a verb (pronounced as a word, not an initialism), with the past tense "smsd". Although it takes me so long to type a message on the damn thing that I usually just call. :) FiggyBee (talk) 22:41, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

"Texted" gets lots of google hits - such as this rather enlightening document. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:31, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Celtic/Irish/Welsh Symbolism Sign Language

Looking for possible historic reference on the V_sign that may mean anything in secret society language, and/or mythic lore stories of the Celtic region, something to do with Snakes? Like maybe something like Fang style? This is way way out there, but there was a Fred Flinstone & Barney Rubble episode where they in their Loyal Order of Water Buffalos Lodge and being members of the Loyal Order of Dinosaurs do the Peace sign, with accented Fang-Puncturing-Motion. I thought it was so funny as a kid, and just wanted to know if there were any historic significance to this cartoon art medium. Cheers. --i am the kwisatz haderach (talk) 20:36, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Try at the Social Science desk, if no one knows here. Personally, I doubt a connection. The Jade Knight (talk) 21:57, 22 October 2008 (UTC)