Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 July 3

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July 3

Prezzo

Hello, can you tell me how to pronounce 'prezzo' in Italian? There is a restaurant chain in the UK with the name, and it seems reasonable to me to pronounce it 'PRET-zo' in the same fashion as 'PEAT-za' or 'mots-a-RELL-a', but I am encountering disagreement. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.60.20.81 (talk) 13:57, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

You're right that that's how it would be pronounced in Italian. We have a chain in the US called Fazoli's which I always want to pronounce with a [ts] sound, but everyone else pronounces it with a [z]. —Keenan Pepper 14:27, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Double Z is 'ts' and a single Z is pronounced as a Z. Fribbler (talk) 14:39, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

What, are you serious? Are you saying grazie is not pronounced the way I've heard everyone pronounce it? —Keenan Pepper 16:17, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, Fribbler, you're mistaken. Single Z in Italian is pronounced as either [ts] or [dz], depending on the word (you can't tell which from the spelling), and double ZZ is the same, but the "t" or "d" portion is held longer, i.e. double ZZ is pronounced as either [tts] or [ddz], again depending on the word (again, you can't tell which from the spelling). —Angr 16:19, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

In this case, prezzo is the Italian word for "price" (refreshing honesty in advertising for the name of a restaurant!) and is pronounced [ˈpɾɛttso]. (Imagine a Londoner saying "pretzel" and you'll be very close.) —Angr 16:24, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. Whats going on here [1]? Under the "Z" entry the sound file pronounces an s sound then goes on to say grrra(t)sie? Fribbler (talk) 16:26, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I listened to it a few times and managed to convince myself the woman is attempting to say [tsə] before the man says [sta'tsjone], ['gratsje]. But their implication that it's [ts] in the middles of words and [dz] at the beginnings of words is simply a mistake. "Mezzo" is [meddzo] and "zuppa" is [tsuppa]. —Angr 16:36, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

How to capitalize "God"

I know that it is standard English to use a capital letter to spell "God", when referring to the abrahamic, Yahwe-dude. But do you still capitalize "God" when talking about pagan religions, like Greek or Norse mythology? Especially when you need to use it in plural, it seems strange to write "this was met with disapproval from the rest of the Gods", for instance. What's the standard usage advice here? --Oskar 16:27, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

You don't capitalize it when referring to those gods. In English it's sort of his name, I guess. French also capitalizes "Dieu" but uses "dieu" and "dieux" for the other gods. (And since I apparently must insert an Arabic reference into all of my answers, one translation of the Shahada is "there is no god but God" - out of all the possible gods, there is just one, and his name is God). Adam Bishop (talk) 16:31, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Right. If it's a god's name that is "God", then you capitalize it, because it's a proper noun. On the other hand, "gods" is just referring to a bunch of gods, who aren't called "God", so "gods" wouldn't be capitalized. IceUnshattered (talk) 17:49, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Cf. Earth's only moon, which we call the Moon. -- Coneslayer (talk) 17:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Seems obvious now :) Thanks --Oskar 18:36, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

There are many examples where a common house-and-garden noun (oops, sorry oh ye gods) - in the specific context of referencing the One and Only - turns into a capitalised proper noun: the Bard (Willi), the King (Elvis), the Pope (Benedict), the Doctor (who?), La Stupenda (Dame J. Sutherland), or even (Occam´s) Razor. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:00, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

If "stupenda" is a commonly used noun in your world, Cookatoo, I must come and visit you some time. :) Was there ever a "stupenda" before JS, and will there ever be another? -- JackofOz (talk) 23:31, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

As I recently recorded my sisters old vinyl LPs as MP3 CDs (you may call that a sacrilege), I stumbled across a few of her old recordings, mainly with Franco Corelli. Maybe, for reasons of a secure backup, I should consider supplying a trusted acquaintance with a copy? --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 23:52, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Was that last statement supposed to be another question? With regards to the OP of this question, it is considered His name, so in proper English, it is capitalized, atheist or not. The capitalization of "His" however is more out of respect. Also, in case you didn't know, the Lord's name Yahweh, is considered so sacred by the Jewish people of biblical times (and maybe orthodox followers now) it humans are not worthy to speak His name. So in the bible, His name is replaced with LORD--omnipotence407 (talk) 04:09, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, that's not really his name, it's just something with those consonants... Adam Bishop (talk) 12:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, technically its YHWH because there are no vowels in Hebrew, and if you wanted to be really specific, Here it is in all sorts of ancient Hebrew. -- Omnipotence407 (talk) 12:40, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

As an aside, wikipedia style is against capitalizing 3rd person pronouns. No worries on a talk page but a no-no in an article. -LambaJan (talk) 22:51, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

So, if it is not a quote, an article about the christian God cannot reference Him as such? Since it is generally accepted, wouldn't that be ok? I'm sure that that policy is just so people that revere people like, I don't know, Weird Al, cannot refer to him as Him. I'm not looking for an argument, just clarification--omnipotence407 (talk) 02:13, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

That's correct. See the Manual of Style. The wiki MoS is highly influenced from the Chicago MoS which is the same on this point. The rationale is that what is generally accepted varies a bit from group to group (different points in the fuzzy 'generally accepted' spectrum), and some groups go rather far and make things look POV and unprofessional. That's why we have a clearly defined MoS. I've been through this a bit because it's come up on the Baha'i pages. We also routinely capitalize Him and His and such in our own works but here we don't because of the MoS. I think it's a good policy because without it we'd have a bit of a slippery slope. Even still, when I went to the MoS page today I found some zealot removed that sentence and I had to restore it, which makes it even more clear to me how important it is to have those rules to begin with. -LambaJan (talk) 03:54, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Quar- words

Okay, informal survey of the native English speakers here. In which, if any, of the following words do you drop the [w] sound in colloquial, unguarded speech; and where are you from?

1. quarantine
2. quark (the particle in physics)
3. quarrel
4. quarry ("prey")
5. quarry ("excavation site")
6. quart
7. quarter
8. quartet
9. quartz

I personally (having grown up in Rochester, New York, and Austin, Texas, but with an accent much closer to General American than to the local accent of either of those cities) pronounce only "quark", "quarrel", and "quarry (prey)" with [w]; all the others start with [kɔr-] for me. (Yes, this means that I pronounce the two meanings of "quarry" differently!) My dictionaries barely mention this phenomenon (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate lists it only for "quarter", Longman lists it as non-RP British but says nothing about American, other dictionaries from both sides of the pond don't mention it at all), so I'm wondering how widespread it is. —Angr 16:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

In my urban southern Ontario accent (presumably tinged with General American thanks to watching too much TV), I drop the [w] only in quart, quarter, quartet, and quartz. Well, I had to think about "quart" because that's one of the measurements my generation has completely discarded. I was actually surprised to find that I dropped it in "quartet" because it seems like it should remain, but doesn't sound right at all if I keep it. Maybe it has something to do with the following [t]? If I think about them (so, the formal, guarded way that I would probably never really pronounce them), the first three should begin with [kʷ] and quartz should begin with [kw]. "Quark" and "quarry" are [kwɑrk] and [kwɛri] for me (I guess), but my pronunciation of quark, like my pronunciation of data, comes from Star Trek, and I'm pretty sure I pronounce "quarry" like "query" just because I really have no occasion to use that word (should it be [kwɑri]?). "Quarantine" and "quarrel" (and "quartz" if I think about it too much) are pronounced [kwɔr-]. Adam Bishop (talk) 17:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

According to the dictionaries, both meanings of "quarry" should start with [kw] and then be followed by whatever vowel your dialect uses in "forest"; in other words, it should rhyme perfectly with "lorry" for all English speakers. I first encountered the word "quarry" in the sense of "excavation site" when I was 9 years old and starting a new school, because there was a quarry behind the schoolyard. I had never seen the word written down, but from the teacher's pronunciation I thought it was spelled "corey". —Angr 20:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

In my not-heavily-accented Irish (north-east) accent, they all begin [kw]. Fribbler (talk) 17:55, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I never drop the [w] in any of those words, in any circumstances, and I can't think of any other quar- words where I would drop the [w].(I think I only ever drop it when pronouncing French words, but I suppose that's not really relevant here.) I'm from London (England, not Ontario).--92.40.205.184 (talk) 18:05, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I also never drop the [w] in any of those words in any circumstances. However, I am from the midwest U.S. (St. Louis to be exact), and I'm pretty sure that folks with a more "midwestern" accent than me would say quarter (and maybe quart, too) without the [w]. I know I've heard people around here say quarter almost like "KAR-ter". Dgcopter (talk) 18:19, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

As a South Jersey native, I never drop the [w], with the possible exception of "quartz". Someoneinmyheadbutit'snotme (talk) 18:50, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

As a native Californian, I would never drop the w. Corvus cornix_talk 19:03, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Native Irish here. Never drop the 'w' sound, nor have I ever heard it dropped, as far as I'm aware.--Yumegusa (talk) 19:34, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

As a native Floridian with an accent somewhat influenced by that of my parents from South Jersey/Philadelphia, I say all of those words with [w], and I haven't heard a different way of pronouncing them from anyone else I've come in contact with.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 20:37, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

As an Australian, I pronounce all of them with [w], although quart, quarter, quartet and quartz can sometimes sound like it's only a half-[w], which is not the same thing as [u]. What about question vs. questionnaire? There are people who keep the [w] with question, but drop it with questionnaire (it starts with "kest", which for some reason revolts me and makes me feel all queasy - that's kweezy, not keezy). -- JackofOz (talk) 23:23, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

At first I was going to say that I also don't drop /w/ in any but then maybe I'm being too formal when I'm pronouncing the words. So a better measure might be, if I do omit the /w/, whether it sounds/feels funny or not. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 9 seem to need the /w/ while 6, 7, 8 can do without. A number of the first group form minimal pairs (court, coral, cory

I used to work in a secure area and employees could only carry in a small quart-sized ziploc bag's worth of items. There was a funny meeting when our boss reminded us that the ziploc bags couldn't be larger than a court. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 09:16, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

As I said, I pronounce only 2, 3, and 4 with the [w] and the rest without; but only "quarantine" and "quarry (exc. site)" don't sound too funny if I do pronounce them with [kw]. For 6 through 9, pronouncing the [w] feels distinctly odd to me, rather like pronouncing the w in "sword". (I trust no one here does that!) —Angr 09:46, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Southern England English: /w/ sounds in all of them. Bazza (talk) 12:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm with you on 6–9, Angr: said without the [w]. However, 1–5 have it. Gwinva (talk) 20:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

What accent do you have, Gwinva? It's starting look like I must be the only person on the planet who says "corantine" and who distinguishes between "quarry" and "corry". What I can't figure out is why I don't say "coral" for "quarrel"! —Angr 20:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Native Californian, so I don't drop the [w] for any of them. bibliomaniac15 22:47, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Southern England, pretty much RP, but like Adam Bishop it's 1-5 /kw/, 6-9 /k/. And I agree that 'quartz' seems like it should be /kw/, but I'd never seriously pronounce it like that. Although I suspect I sort-of 'breath' on 6-9, like some people pronounce 'wh' at the start of words. (Angr, I knew someone who always pronounced the 'w' in sword and wouldn't believe us that this wasn't the usual pronunciation among native speakers. The horror!) 86.141.89.124 (talk) 01:37, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I pronounce them all "kw" and I'm from Manchester in the North West of Englandhotclaws 14:01, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I grew up in Cleveland, OH, and they're all always with a kw for me and everyone I know except for a kid who grew up in Brooklyn, NY. -LambaJan (talk) 03:59, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Definition of Words

I would like to know what the name for these and other words are called:

Example:

Synonym Antonym

And a whole lot more. Is there a specific name/category for words such as these?

Thank You,

Marla —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.69.94.76 (talk) 21:38, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

It's not a word, but WP has an article on the suffix: -onym. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 21:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Your example may have been chosen somewhat unwisely, as synonym is the antonym of antonym and antonym is the antonym of synonym and neither synonym nor antonym is the synonym of antonym or synonym. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:14, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

There is a one-word synonym for antonym ("opposite") but there's no one-word synonym for synonym. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:13, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

You might want to look through the Figure of speech article too. Sandman30s (talk) 22:49, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Could 'linguistic terminology' be the phrase you're after? Steewi (talk) 01:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The article on lexical semantics suggests lexical relations too, though I'm not quite sure that's what you're looking for. ---Sluzzelin talk 07:26, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

While there isnt a general word (that I know of anyway) that covers words of different types of relations with other words in the lexicon, the term lexical relation is the general term that covers specific types of lexical relations such as synonymy, opposition (antonymy), meronymy, homonymy, polysemy, hyponymy, member-collection, incompatibility.

Antonyms and synonyms are not considered to be opposites (i.e. they arent antonyms of each other) within the field of lexical semantics (the relations are quite different), but that idea hasnt filtered down to what is taught in elementary schools (which still hold on to 19th century ideas). – ishwar  (speak) 07:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Canadian English: "Focussing" or "Focusing"?

The article on Canadian English doesn't seem to have anything on the specific word 'focusing'. Dictionary.com tells me that spelling the word with one 's' is the US spelling, and using two is done predominantly in the UK. The 'English (Canadian)' language setting in MS Word allows both with the dreaded red line, but can anyone tell me which is the preferred spelling in Canada? Or are they both equally sound? Thanks in advance. Phileas (talk) 23:47, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

My The Canadian Oxford Dictionary (ed. Katherine Barber, 1998) says both are acceptable. It puts "focused, focusing" ahead of "focussed, focussing", but the pairs are not numbered. Personally, I use the doubled consonant because (a) that's what I was taught in public (elementary) school back in the Dark Ages, and (b) pronunciation errors might arise if you use the single consonant. The Canadian newspapers currently (The Globe and Mail, The Toronto Star) use the single consonant. ៛ Bielle (talk) 00:03, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I always double final Ts, but doubling an S looks kind of strange to me. I don't think we ever learned it one way or the other in school, not for S anyway. With a double S, I want to pronounce it with the stress on the second syllable, like "percuss". Adam Bishop (talk) 01:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I suspect, Adam, that the difference is a result of when we went through school. My memories stem from the mid-1950s. Both ways are acceptable now. ៛ Bielle (talk) 01:37, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the information, Bielle. I'll admit, even though I've only been out of the UK for a couple of years, "focussing" looks wrong to me. I don't know if that's because of a change in the way we spell it back in Blighty, or if it's just me. Thanks again. Phileas (talk) 02:52, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The tendency these days is to double a single final consonant in such inflected forms of verbs only when it's in a syllable that's stressed (e.g., incurring, rebutting), and not to double it when it's in an unstressed syllable (e.g., worshiping, traveling). This leads to some forms that look odd to me (kidnaping, for example, looks as though it should have a long a in the middle), but so it goes. Deor (talk) 03:12, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

To clarify spelling here in the UK: focusing/focussing[2] , incurring[3], rebutting[4], worshipping[5], travelling[6], kidnapping[7]. Bazza (talk) 12:08, 4 July 2008 (UTC)