Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2024 March 12

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March 12

Afghan Uzbeks, Tajiks, and Turkemen: Emigration from Afghanistan?

Why aren't Afghan Uzbeks, Tajiks, and Turkmen emigrating from Afghanistan and into their own nation-states (Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Turkmenistan) in large numbers? They would have a better quality of life there, both economically and in terms of personal freedoms (maybe with the possible exception of totalitarian Turkmenistan; both Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, while still dictatorships, are likely freer right now than Afghanistan is, which is oppressive as Hell ever since 2021 under the Deobandi-influenced Islamic fundamentalist Taliban). Is it because those countries don't want them moving over there? If so, why exactly? Existing high unemployment?

Kazakhstan accepted large numbers (around a million) of Oralman from other countries post-independence, but what made Kazakhstan unique in being willing to do this relative to southern Central Asia? 172.56.186.104 (talk) 00:48, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the "pull" factors are as strong as you think. Just because someone is ethnically X, it doesn't automatically follow that he wants to live in the country of X-stan. Uzbekistan was a semi-hellhole under Islam Karimov, and Turkmenistan is still kind of one today -- we have whole articles on Corruption in Uzbekistan and Corruption in Turkmenistan. And Tajikistan is a rather small country. AnonMoos (talk) 03:05, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, Uzbekistan was a shithole under Karimov, but his successor Mirziyoyev appears to be making Uzbekistan better. Uzbekistan's Freedom in the World rating has significantly improved under Mirziyoyev, albeit from extraordinarily low levels. And Tajikistan's population density isn't that high. Granted, most of Tajikistan is mountainous, but surely Dushanbe is capable of massively increasing in size, no? (You are correct about Turkmenistan, though. It's much wealthier than Afghanistan but still a very totalitarian place. I mentioned this in my OP here.)

As for why someone from a particular ethnic group would want to live in their ethnic homeland, that's because this is how it has often happened throughout history, especially over the last couple of centuries. When the various national borders were being redrawn after WWI, they were often redrawn on ethnic lines, sometimes with plebiscites. The areas that didn't get plebiscites sometimes saw border revisions later on, such as the Sudetenland and (violently) Danzig. Putin regathered Crimea in 2014 on national self-determination grounds, which might be legit (certainly nowhere near 97% support at the time of this referendum, though) though there is no way of knowing for sure yet because the 2014 referendum there was almost certainly rigged. And there have been cases of diaspora immigration to the homeland: In addition to Kazakhstan, both Germany and Israel come to mind as having this on a huge scale. Granted, some of this immigration was likely for financial reasons, but this factor also applies here, or at least it should. 172.56.186.104 (talk) 04:49, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

There's also another very concrete way that southern Central Asia is better than Afghanistan: Women's rights. Southern Central Asian governments are nowhere near as oppressive towards women as the Taliban are, perhaps because Communism has instilled a sense of secularization in them. While most Afghans who care about women's rights would probably prefer to move to the West, one would think that southern Central Asia would be an attractive alternative destination for them if they can't actually enter the West--or at least would be if southern Central Asia will have its doors be open to Afghan immigrants, even only to those of their own titular nationalities (Turkmens, Uzbeks, and Tajiks). 172.56.186.104 (talk) 05:40, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Grandchildren of Jews in the Diaspora being raised Jewish

What percentage of grandchildren of Jews in the Diaspora are raised Jewish? Does anyone here have any data for this?

AFAIK, it appears likely that a majority/most of the ones who live in Israel identify as Jewish (even if they did not necessarily identify that way before they moved to Israel), but I'm curious about the ones who live in the Diaspora specifically here.

(For the source about how the ones in Israel identify, I made the relevant deduction based on this:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/even-among-its-advocates-changing-the-law-of-return-proves-trickier-than-expected/#:~:text=Rabbi%20Shmuel%20David%2C%20the%20chief,from%20the%20former%20Soviet%20Union.

"Elkin, Malinovsky, Rif and Belenky all noted that while Israelis of "no religion" may not be Jewish according to Jewish law, or halacha, they nevertheless consider themselves to be Jewish. Indeed, a survey by the One Million Lobby found that 94 percent of Russian-speaking Israelis said they identify as Jewish, even though only 74 percent said they are considered Jewish by the Chief Rabbinate.")

172.56.186.104 (talk) 00:59, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Do you mean "Raised in the knowledge that they are ethnically Jewish" or "Raised to follow Jewish religious beliefs and practices"? AnonMoos (talk) 02:42, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Either one. Especially if they are not raised in any other religion, such as Christianity. 172.56.186.104 (talk) 04:43, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Which Jewish diaspora are you referring to?  --Lambiam 10:02, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Korean War and Vietnam War draft registration cards for American men?

Do American men of military age during the Korean War and Vietnam War have draft registration cards comparable to those that American men of military age during both WWI and WWII have? 172.56.186.104 (talk) 01:41, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

I couldn't find anything in the "Selective Service System" article, but Draft-card burning wouldn't have been possible without it... AnonMoos (talk) 02:40, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks; I wonder if the draft cards themselves looked similar to the WWI and WWII era US ones.

Fun fact: WWI and WWII era US draft cards are a great way to find a document from early on in one's life, or at least from the middle of one's life, that has a full date of birth for people who subsequently became supercentenarians or at least close to it and who don't have either birth records or baptismal records. US Census entries don't give full dates of birth, and before the 1970 US Census, only the 1900 US Census even gave a month of birth in addition to the birth year (exceptions for babies were made in earlier US Censuses). 172.56.186.104 (talk) 04:54, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

See File:DraftcardRenJuan.jpg for Vietnam and File:King,_Stoddard_WW1_draft_card.jpg for WWI RudolfRed (talk) 05:08, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

I already know what both WWI and WWII draft cards look like from FamilySearch.org. But if you also have a photo of a Korean War draft card, I'd like to please see it. 172.56.186.104 (talk) 05:13, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Here's Elvis's 1953 draft card [1] and here's a 1969 card: [2]. Abductive (reasoning) 07:44, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Korean War and Vietnam War draft cards don't list people's race like WWI and WWII draft cards do. Was this due to the US becoming less racist? 172.56.186.104 (talk) 07:53, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

The racist filth resisted: see Racial segregation in the United States Armed Forces. Abductive (reasoning) 08:24, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

By the way, I think that File:King, Stoddard WW1 draft card.jpg is a document that would be kept in government files, and not the same thing as what a man would have carried around with him to show that he had registered (the "draft card" in the usual sense)... AnonMoos (talk) 19:13, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

A better image of a Vietnam era draft card is on Flickr (apologies, already posted above). Alansplodge (talk) 14:46, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Afghan separatist movements?

Has Afghanistan ever had any serious separatist movements? I don't mean local warlords ruling over just a part of the country, but actual Afghan territories that want to secede from Afghanistan.

I'm wondering if had the Niedermayer-Hentig Expedition succeeded and Afghanistan entered World War I on the Central Powers side, the Entente Powers would have tried to support any separatist movements in Afghanistan similar to what they did with the Arab Revolt in the Ottoman Empire. 172.56.186.104 (talk) 04:59, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Afghanistan was kind of a buffer state between Russia and British India, which means that declaring war on both simultaneously would have been an extremely risky move... AnonMoos (talk) 10:06, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

It's perhaps worth remembering that in "a country" where local warlords ruling over parts is the norm, the people ruled by those warlords are less likely to think of the current officially appointed central government at all. And if you're unlikely to even recognize such form of higher power, the less you'll consider establishing one yourself. That said, Ahmad Shah Durrani did "break away" parts of what was what the British considered Afghanistan to form his own eponymous empire (which, despite the name, couldn't have succeeded without a broader social movement). InedibleHulk (talk) 14:39, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

The article Failed State nay be relevant. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:57, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

What's the average size of a current written national constitution?

Results are swamped by stuff like length in years instead of in verbosity and the average word count of a state in my country the US. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:42, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Figure it out yourself from List of national constitutions. This has a nice graph. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 15:46, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I didn't know we had a list of word counts. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:10, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

That's why you should learn to better search for stuff yourself. I didn't know either until I searched for "length in words of national constitutions", and the very first results were a list of the word count of constitutions and the Wikipedia link I provided. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 17:37, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

I did "average length of a constitution", "average length of a national constitution", "average length of a national constitution in words" and "average length of a national constitution in characters" all without quotes which didn't work and still doesn't but your search term worked very well when I tried. Actually average length of a national constitution in "words" also works even though the same thing without quotes already has the word "words" in results but only about states (USA provinces). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:01, 16 March 2024 (UTC)