Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2024 July 17

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July 17

Monograms or cyphers with double letters

Do you know any monogram or cypher (royal or otherwise) that use the same initial twice and facing in opposite directions (for example a capital letter and its mirror image) either back to back (the inverted letter first, when using a left-to-right script) or facing each other (first the usual letter). I'm specifically interested in the Latin alphabet but if you've got examples in other scripts, do include them. I know there's a cursive double L that Louis XIV used. I'd thought there was a double E that some Elizabeth (Elizabeth I?) or other used but I can't find it. Anyway, any example is good and gratefully accepted. 178.51.74.75 (talk) 01:58, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

c:File:Royal Monogram of King William IV of Great Britain, Variant.svg kinda seems like it does, while c:File:Royal Monogram of King George V of Great Britain.svg achieves a very similar effect by using different letters cleverly. Folly Mox (talk) 02:22, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Also the monogram of the late Prince Philip which shows a double "P", and appears in the logo of The Duke of Edinburgh's Award. Alansplodge (talk) 08:53, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

The monogram of Prince Carl Philip of Sweden has been made artificially symmetric by intertwining CP with its mirror image CP.  --Lambiam 11:53, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

There are a couple of examples in the gallery at royal cypher that seem to fit the bill, most obviously that of King Carol II of Romania (not very clear in our photo, but described as "two opposed Cs"). That of King George I of Greece appears to be two crossed Γs (the Greek letter gamma). There are also a couple that don't quite fit your criteria because the letters themselves are symmetrical and so you can't tell what direction they're facing: Sheikh Maktoum bin Rashid Al Maktoum of Dubai (seems to include two Ms) and King Michael I of Romania (four Ms with both reflectional and rotational symmetry). Proteus (Talk) 09:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

There are a several examples in commons:Category:Royal monograms of Denmark and commons:Category:Royal monograms of Sweden (and presumably in other subcategories of commons:Category:Royal monograms).  --Lambiam 12:08, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

As an "otherwise" example, the Chanel logo [[1]] 2A01:E0A:CBA:BC60:B108:C36D:53EC:399 (talk) 11:36, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

J. R. R. Tolkien

-- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 21:53, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks guys. Is there any theory out there as to how this originated. Would this have originated as an abbreviation of a name being written in two different directions (the right-to-left form being a mirror image of the name)? Problem is I've never ever seen anything like that? Have you? Another possibility: it symbolizes the name (represented by its initials) being "broadcast" in two directions? Speculation. Any actual theory put forward in a reliable source? Also: any idea who first originated this sort of design? How old it is? 178.51.74.75 (talk) 02:42, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Symmetry is (or can be) beautiful? I doubt there is any relationship with boustrophedon writing, though Tolkien (see example above) said that some elves wrote bi-directionally. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 07:54, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

"the development of the more stylised royal cypher seems to date from the reign of William and Mary. To emphasise their joint rule, their initials were interlaced and – apparently simply to add symmetry – the first R was reversed."^[2]  --Lambiam 10:46, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Another example: ABBA (band)#Official logo. --142.112.148.225 (talk) 04:31, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

The monogram of King Frederik X of Denmark have two mirrored letter F. See Frederik X#Personal symbols. Dipsacus fullonum (talk) 10:04, 20 July 2024 (UTC)