Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2024 February 16

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February 16

Royal ancestors of Wallis Simpson

Did Wallis Simpson had any distant royal ancestors? Any known line connecting her to any English kings like Edward I or William the Conqueror? 2601:1C0:8301:34A0:8DC1:21FB:7484:C7AD (talk) 03:11, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Almost certainly. For example if you go back 25 generations (that's about the time of King John), anyone alive today will have about 30,000,000 ancestors alive at that time, and the chances are that some of those were "royalty". Shantavira|^{feed me} 10:18, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Her mother's surname was Montague, [1] so perhaps distantly connected with the House of Montagu? But nothing on the internet suggests a known descent from royalty. Alansplodge (talk) 10:54, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Meant to ask about documented lines not a lesson in probability. 2601:1C0:8301:34A0:44EA:9531:FE94:515C (talk) 02:51, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Geni (not necessarily the most reliable of sources) traces her Montague line back to John Montagu, 3rd Earl of Salisbury, whose maternal grandfather (Thomas de Monthermer, 2nd Baron Monthermer) was a grandson of Edward I. 110.174.35.105 (talk) 11:27, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Rough expressions in Edmund Ætheling

Hello. My name is Ansokuko-San, a Japanese Wikipedian. I have some questions about rough expressions in this article. If you can specify them, please tell me. ( I am now nominating this article of Japanese version for the Good Article, but some veterans are asking me to make it more specific in some points. I need your help……) Four points below are now being asked by veterans.

Q1

・ < Edmund and Edward were recorded as being "somewhat grown, and had passed twelve years" when they arrived in Yaroslav's capital, Gardorika [27] >
→ the veteran is asking me about the name of literatures that prove those sentences above.

Q2&Q3

・< A mid thirteenth-century letopis (chronicle) records nothing of Edmund and Edward's stay at the Kievan court, although later Russian chronicles do mention their refuge.[29]>
→the veteran is asking me about the specific name of letopis that prove those sentences.

→the veteran is asking me about later. When were those later Russian Chronicles made? He is saying there are too many Russian chronicles to find the right ones mentioned here.

Q4

・<The Æthelings' presence at the Kievan court presented itself as "a very useful negotiating counter" for Yaroslav's Western-orientated foreign policy.[32]
→What is the Western-oriented foreign policy? and How Kiev used Æthelings as a very usuful negotiating counter?

These three points are all about I want to ask. I hope they are resolved and these resolutions make this article better! Sorry for bad English.If you need more explanation, don’t hesitate to ask!

regards

—安息香酸 (talk) 04:23, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Q1: The quote can be found in The Lost King of England: The East European Adventures of Edward the Exile (p. 61) by Gabriel Ronay (1989). Although the quotation is not directly cited, it seems clear to me from the context that he is quoting from Estoire des Engleis by Geoffrey Gaimar. Alansplodge (talk) 09:59, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

After some more digging:

What shall I say ? He departed, And went to Denmark. With the children he went. One was called Eadgar, The other's name was Ethelred*. This was the younger lad. Well were they kept and well nourished. When they were somewhat grown, And had passed twelve years, They were very noble and pleasing. (Lines 4513-4522)

• [footnote] "Eadmand and Eadward, according to Florence of Worcester (5.a. 1017)".

Lestorie Des Engles: Solum la Translacion Maistre Geffrei Gaimar (p. 143) Alansplodge (talk) 10:26, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Q2&Q3: The cited source is Ronay 1989 (cited above) p. 56 which says that Edmund is not mentioned in a work by Nestor the Chronicler of c. 1095 called Nachalny Svod. The other chronicles that don't mention Edmund are given as Ipatyevskaya Letopis (c. 1420), Lavrentevskaya Letopis (c. 1377) and Novgorodskaya Letopis (mid-13th century). The later Russian chronicles that do mention Edmund are not named here, but Ronay states that their source is Adam of Bremen's Gesta Hammaburgensis ecclesiae pontificum. Alansplodge (talk) 11:33, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Q4: See again Ronay 1989 cited above, Chapter 10: Anglo-Saxon counters in a Continental battle for dominance (p. 68). Alansplodge (talk) 10:44, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much Alansplodge!

I will rewrite the article with them that you explained to me here.

-安息香酸 (talk) 04:07, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Date of opening of North German parliament in 1867

Following the February 1867 North German federal election, on what date was the North German parliament opened? It was before 13 March, as there is a newspaper report of a ship being launched at Lübeck "on the day of the opening of the North German Parliament" in the Liverpool Mercury of that date. Mjroots (talk) 06:52, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

The triumphal return of the Prussian troops to Berlin was followed on the 24th of February, 1867, by the opening of the first North German parliament...

Two German giants: Frederic the Great and Bismarck. The founder and the builder of German empire (p. 99) by John Lord (1894). Alansplodge (talk) 09:51, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, Alansplodge. Mjroots (talk) 07:30, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Department of Agriculture & Technical Instruction, Dublin, 1909

Some Men and Their Maxims - John Currie - Dublin 1909

Can we put (full) names to the people sketched here, by John Currie?

The 1911 Irish census has a Henry Garrett and Beresford Ingram both at an address in County Down. Both are listed as Inspectors in the Department of Agriculture.

Thom's Civil Service Directory 1913, p872 entry for the Department of Agriculture & Technical Instruction, Technical Instruction Branch lists: W Vickers Dixon as Senior Inspector; H Garrett, J J McCaffrey, R Turnbull as Inspectors; B Ingram as Junior Inspector.

What were their given names, and who else is depicted? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:39, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

No answer to the main question, but just for clarity the text (edited after comments below) reads:

"Social position is the main thing" B.

"Our aim should always be to amuse men." W. D[ixon]

"All men get what they deserve." B. I[ngram]

"Be good, and let who can be clever." J. S. C. (Stuart)

"Love all, and suspect nothing." J. J. M. (Mccaffery)

"So easy - avoid the snares and delusions of life. Rather smoke through them." H. G[arrett]

"He that fearlessly banters his fellow man shall be tall in their esteem." C. M[cGann]

"Tho' church holds sway, and frightens Pat, A mans a man for a' that." R. T[urnbull]

Some men and their maxims. With rather bad portraits J. C.

GalacticShoe (talk) 17:46, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

By my estimate that just leaves J.J.M. Mccaffery, C. McGann, and the rather mysterious "B." unaccounted for. GalacticShoe (talk) 17:47, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

"McCaffery" is obviously a misspelling of "McCaffrey". But J. S. C. Stuart is left unaccounted for.  --Lambiam 10:30, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm realizing now that when I was matching names in the directory to names listed along with maxims, I accidentally included McCaffrey into the list of missing instead of Stuart, that's my bad. And the McCaffery misspelling makes sense; I should note that while McCaffery is also a surname in its own right, I doubt the directory would mislabel one of its own inspectors. GalacticShoe (talk) 20:39, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I've added that to the image description.Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:13, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

I think that the first word of the last maxim is Tho’ – an alternative spelling of though. The one-but-last word of its first line may be rightens. The last letter of the following word may be a t.  --Lambiam 10:25, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Or "righteous"? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:26, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

That was my first thought. Now I think the word is actually frightens; compare the initial fs of fearlessly and fellow in the preceding McGann maxim.  --Lambiam 13:38, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

"Tho'" certainly makes a lot more sense, and I imagine that first quotation mark is probably just a double quotation mark that's heavily condensed, given that, whereas previously it would be connected to the quotation mark after what I presumed to be "this", it is now kinda just hanging there. (There is another apparent quotation mark after Pal, but I also now doubt that that's a double quotation mark as I previously thought.) GalacticShoe (talk) 20:36, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

I wondered whether that word might be "Pat", to rhyme with "that". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:48, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Now that you mention it, given Currie's penchant of sending the crossbar of the t into outer space, this makes sense. I will add this to the transcription. GalacticShoe (talk) 20:55, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

That's what I thought too when I wrote, "The last letter of the following word may be a t."  --Lambiam 22:30, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Paintings by Genevieve Estelle Jones

Our article on Genevieve Estelle Jones says she only completed five paintings for Illustrations of the Nests and Eggs of Birds of Ohio, the rest being completed by her family, after she died. It doesn't cite the claim, nor say which. It would be good if both articles could do so. Can anyone help, please? A biography, America's other Audubon, by Joy M. Kiser, was published in 2012. Maybe that has the answer? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:28, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

It does help and can be cited to the work (tho haven't tried looking for which yet), the text content is minimal but i think valuable for the article. An WP:RX request would probably be best, otherwise i can add the citations. fiveby(zero) 21:06, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I was able to borrow Kiser's book through the Internet Archive, and have added the relevant details and a citation. For info, the book reproduces and attributes all five of GEJ's plates. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:10, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Resolved

 – Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:10, 16 February 2024 (UTC)