Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2024 August 25

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August 25

1967, Can this criminal incidence corroborated?

Question is:How far incidences of 1967 can be corroborated through news in then news media or RS books specially about any alleged misbehavior against women?

• Naxalbari uprising: 1967 an ultra left (communist) violent farmer/ tribal agitation was going on in West Bengal state, India.

• 1969 April 6, A scheduled musical night in Kolkata (Draft) (earlier spelling Calcutta) went haywire with ensued violence that allegedly included en masse misbehavior against women. The violence and the controversy was further politicized.

An investigative journalist's report that I got translated from a Wikipedian about 1969 April 6, incidence goes as below.

.. According to weekly Manus माणस dated 17th May; a session of robbing, firing, rapes, murders etc completed with the farmer riots in 1967. The offenders were arrested. Fortunate for them, Jyoti Basu became Deputy Chief Minister and Home Minister in 1969 and released all these men. These men were the organizers of the 6th April event. ..

The investigative journalist probably is speaking of the 1967 Naxalbari uprising. In cases of crime corroborating investigative report remains difficult and 1967 - 1969 is too old story. But still How far incidences of 1967 can be corroborated through news in then news media or RS books specially about any alleged misbehavior against women? Bookku (talk) 13:25, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

I can think of no other way of doing so other than to research deeply all the available records from the era dealing the subject and see what emerges. A considerable task, perhaps suited to someone who intends to write a book on the topic.

Given the nature of the events, it is likely that much was not published in newspapers (which have no brief to be comprehensive and which don't like to say what people don't want to read), or stated publicly by officials (who may have similar self-interested scruples), so official reports, perhaps not published at the time, may have more. In the UK and other countries there is the Thirty year rule, which annually causes the release of previously sequestered documents that journalists and others can study. Is there a similar procedure in India? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.209.45 (talk) 16:08, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your inputs. As you say the topic would necessitates some deep dive.

As such I suppose Naxalbari uprising (violent communism) is reasonably reported and academically studied topic.

For example " 'The Goondas' Towards the reconstruction of Calcutta Underworld" by Das Suranjan, Ray Jayanta K. (Department of History University of Calcutta) 1996, explains linkages and distinguishing factors between common criminality and political violence. Das and Ray seem to have taken note of crime of some criminals mentioned by above said investigative journalist, same time conspicuously silent about 1969 criminal incidence.

Another problem for that era is most sources though of Indian origin are in Western and US libraries and not available on Wikipedia library or google books. Deep dive seem to need some support from who have physical access to those libraries too. Bookku (talk) 05:08, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi Bookku. I'm not sure exactly what is your question. What would be the linkage between Naxalbari uprising and the April 6 event? Surely none, and what is stated from Manoos would have been a fringe view at the time. --Soman (talk) 12:04, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Since the Manoos's investigative journalist seems to have traveled all the way from Maharashtra to Kolkata specially to investigate specific April 6 incidence.

I did not write off totally since was not sure that the journalist specially traveling long distance in 1969 would have done false reporting for the sake of it. We do not know if his sources so I thought better to get confirm.

On side note one of the later, the same year, a column of The frontier complains selective reporting of media about Rabindra Sarobar stadium incidence but does not report on similar incidence Rabindra Rangshala Delhi same or previous year. When I searched for Rabindra Rangshala Delhi haven't got much news sources, but curiously a 2019 fiction novel mentioning some incidence to have happened at Rabindra Rangshala Delhi in those times. (Of course there is no question of giving credence to any descriptions in any novel)

Cross checking and confirming things for encyclopedia is challenging. I find this noticeboard is very helpful though. Bookku (talk) 12:18, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Are these the same people?

Is Azadeh (Shahnameh) the same person as Āzādvar-e Changi?

The former I'm not familiar with, but the latter is usually mentioned as the handful of known Sassanian musicians: Āzādvar-e Changi, Bamshad, Nagisa (Nakisa), Ramtin, Sarkash (also Sargis or Sarkas) and Barbad. I know Āzādvar-e Changi's name is given as simply Azad sometimes, but I'm not exactly sure who they are. It would not be too suprising if they were the same, since Nagisa and Barbad, for instance, are only really known from colorful depictions in later literature—more focused on the story than their musical importance/history, which seems to be the case for Azadeh (Shahnameh). Aza24 (talk) 00:54, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

According to Azadeh (Shahnameh), she was associated in story with Bahram-e Gur aka Bahram V (who lived 400–438), while according to Nagisa (harpist), Āzādvar-e Changi aka Āzād seved in the court of Khosrow II (ca. 570–628), so assuming these facts are accurate the two cannot have been the same person as they lived nearly 200 years apart.

However, since Shahnameh was written around 1000, about 400–600 years after the two allegedly lived (if they really existed at all), and is openly based partly on myths and legends, its reliability as to dates and identities is presumably questionable.

I am reminded of the popular legend of the Trojan war refugee Aeneas and his famous love affair with the Carthaginian Queen Dido, which ignores the fact that plausible dates for the two place their lives around 400 years apart. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.209.45 (talk) 06:05, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Well said, thank you! Aza24 (talk) 01:06, 2 September 2024 (UTC)