Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 October 3

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October 3

Saints Edern and Edeyrn

Saint

The same image (the name of which refers to the unrelated fr:Saint Herbot) is used to illustrate both Saint Edern and Saint Edeyrn. Wiki tells me

• Edern = 9th century monk, possibly from Ireland or Wales
• Edeyrn = 6th century saint from Wales

Both are mentioned as being connected to Lannédern in France. Question: Is this in fact the same saint? Is the image correctly labelled for any of the saints? As I don't have time to delve into this, can someone have a look. Thanks. Deadstar (talk) Deadstar (talk) 09:45, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

The German Wikipedia page, de:Edern (Heiliger), has Edeyrn as a variant of Edern, but the only reference is a broken weblink. Alansplodge (talk) 12:38, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

The Edern mentioned here is clearly the same historical or mythological entity as the Edeyrn mentioned here, matching the description in our article Saint Edeyrn.  --Lambiam 15:59, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) According to [1] Saint Edeyrn (feast day 6 January) was a British companion of King Arthur who became a recluse in Armonica, Brittany. This [2] says St Edern was a ninth-century Welsh hermit in Cornouaille, about 15 km from Quimper. This [3] (referenced in the article) says he died and is buried at Lannedern. It also says (in translation): "There exist two possible versions for the life of this saint who was patron, among other communities, of Lannerdern and Plouedern." Acccording to one Celtic legend he mapped out the bounds of his parish sitting on a deer. This [4] gives his saint's day as 30 August. This [5] says the perambulation was at the instigation of his sister Genevieve. 78.141.40.98 (talk) 16:16, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I did not find dates for Saint Edern in the two sources referenced in Saint Edern. The French Wikipedia also places him in the 9th century, but also without citation. this source about Breton given names does not consider the 9th century as certain.  --Lambiam 16:45, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

The Breton language br:sant Edern article leads to that archeological society source, so the saint would have step foot on the ground near Quimper, first, in ~894. They are debating regarding him arriving from Ireland or Wales. --Askedonty (talk) 17:16, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

This website gives a feast day for "St EDEYRN (OUEDERN)" as 6 January, so it seems unlikely that they are the same person. It also says that Edeyrn has a church dedicated to him in Brittany, which I haven't tracked down yet. Alansplodge (talk) 18:09, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Edern, Finistère a statue of the patron saint (Edeyrn, a Welsh missionary of the 7C) riding a stag[6] and Lannédern Parish close fiveby(zero) 20:04, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Riding a stag? the 9th century saint. In the Bulletin above ( a very bad OCR making it hard to decide), the author R.P. Plaine (Dom Plaine, Jean-françois Plaine) introduced his 1892 subject with "Ex?;ll.. neveu de saint Colomba et évêquè en Écosse", - genealogists to decide. There's a lot of confusion --Askedonty (talk) 21:16, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

It is said in some ancient documents that the vale of Edeymion had its name on becoming the domain of Edeym, a descendant of Cunedda Wledig, who lived in the former part of the 7th century. His pedigree is thus given in Bonedd y Saint—Edeyrn ab Nudd ab Beli ab Rhun ab Maelgwn Gwynedd ab Cadwallawn Law Hir ab Einiou Yrth ab Cunedda Wledigf Transactions of the Cymmrodorion. 1822.

Edeymion was actually named after an Edeyrn son of Cunedda Wledig[7][8] and not either of our saints.

Edeyrn, the son of Nudd ab Beli ab Rhun ab Maelgwn Gwynedd, was a bard, who embraced a life of sanctity, and the chapel of Bodedeyrn under Holyhead is dedicated to him. Some pedigrees say that the father of Edeyrn was Beli, omitting Nudd. Festival, Jan. 6. Rees, Rice (1836). An essay on the Welsh saints or the primitive Christians.

Jan. 6 Edeyrn the Bard (also Nov 11) in Sabine Baring-Gould's The Lives of the Saints

We also have Llanedeyrn, which is i think Aurdeyrn or Edeyrn or Faustus son of Gwrtheyrn Gwrthenau Aurdeyrn, ap Gwrtheyrn Gwrthenau oi ferch ei hîn, a fu'n Sant yn Llann Edeyrn yng Nghibwyr, lle mae ei Eglwys ef, ag yno y gorwedd: ag efe a wnaeth Gôr yno i drichant Seint, a'r Saeson ai torres yn amser Cadwaladr fendigaid.[9] and and Baring-Gould's Lives of the British Saints

So we definitely have two Welsh saints:

• Edern, son of Ludd, the Bard, Bodedern (Jan. 6) and Llanedern (Dec. 22), of Arthurian Legend in the Mabinogion
• Edeyrn son of Vortigern, Llanedeyrn (Aug. 30 or Nov. 11) and associated with the stag

Baring-Gould has the same Edeyrn in Brittany in Edern, Finistère and Lannédern, but still need more work to see if this is a separate 9c saint born in Brittany. fiveby(zero) 22:13, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

But why are you associating Edeyrn son of Vortigern with the stag ? I thought the stag was part of the legend of Edern, deceased in Lannédern, Brittany? --Askedonty (talk) 22:30, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

(ec)You are right, i was just going to edit that. Baring-Gould associates him with the stag, and includes a stained glass from Plogonnec. We're not sure yet he is correct. fiveby(zero) 22:36, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

I see. I see also now, after reading it better, that Jean-François Plaine may be not entirely convinced himself 9C a fully coherent date for a relevant migration in the related era. He may in fact be leaving a freehand to the lawyer who was analysing the tale primarily (in 1776) and perhaps had had access to notarial like data usefull in a datation. --Askedonty (talk) 23:00, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

EDEYRN, 'santo. Non si conoscono ne i genitori ne la vita di E. Infatti, sono necessarie prove piu convincenti per accettare la storia accolta dal Baring-Gould Bibliotheca Sanctorum. 1964.

Baring-Gould has Edeyrn raised by Germanus of Man and died 522, but our (poorly referenced) St Edeyrn's Church has him an associate of Saint Isan, founding 535 and buried in the churchyard.

 Comment: Thank you all for your research! So in short, there should be two separate entries for these two saints as they are not the same. The stag could be for either of them. The articles may benefit from some of the information you all unearthed. Deadstar (talk) 10:21, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

At least two, I was hoping for some more comments and for more editors to check my reading of the sources. We have three locations with places names and churches:

• North Wales, Anglesey and Llŷn Peninsula
• South Wales, Rhymney River in Cardiff
• Brittany, Finistère

We have two genealogies from Bonedd y Saint

• Edern, son of Ludd
• Edeyrn son of Vortigern

Saint Edern looks fairly straightforward:

• Edern, son of Ludd, North Wales, Edern ap Nudd of Mabinogion (no stag, should not be linking to the image)

But do you merge the articles on the saint and the Arthurian legend? Saint Edeyrn is complicated, for South Wales we have:

• the monastery of 300 on the Rhymney (Rein)
• Baring-Gould's acceptance of parentage from Bonedd y Saint as a child of incest and association Germanus of Man
• the association with Saint Isan and establishment 535, which is incompatible with above (i haven't found any good evidence for this yet)

for Brittany:

• the stag legends (whatever article this ends up being should be the only one that links to the image)
• 9c, from Askedonty's [[10]
• Baring-Gould's assertion that the saint of South Wales and Brittany are one in the same

Baring-Gould is the most detailed source, but the most definitive, it:Bibliotheca Sanctorum doubts the evidence. But it is not clear if the doubt that the Brittany saint came from Wales after establishing the monastery on the Rymney. fiveby(zero) 14:51, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Tracking down scan of Ezra Stiles manuscript

I'm looking for a scan of the original manuscript "A vocabulary of the Pequot Indians, obtained by Ezra Stiles in 1762 at Groton, Connecticut" / "MS 5 Pequot vocabulary". I have not been able to locate a copy. I have found an academic article that transcribes it, but I'd like to see the original if possible. It might simply be that nobody has digitized it yet. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 18:38, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Never mind, found it. It's in Ezra Stiles Papers, Series V, "Miscellanies", pp. 449-454. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 18:56, 3 October 2022 (UTC)