Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 March 20

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March 20

What was the most recent new town established in New York state prior to Palm Tree?

The article Palm Tree, New York states that it is "New York's first new town in 38 years". Since Palm Tree was established on January 1, 2019, that would mean the previous new town in New York would have been established in 1981 (or thereabouts). But what was that town? (Closest I can find is Mount Kisco, New York which became a town in 1978, but that was 41 years before Palm Tree not 38; so, was there some other town(s) established in between Mount Kisco and Palm Tree?) Mr248 (talk) 04:52, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

I found the answer to my own question: "Prior to Palm Tree’s incorporation, the last towns to be established in New York were East Rochester in 1981, Mount Kisco in 1978 and North Harmony in 1918". Mr248 (talk) 05:13, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

I tried to answer your question, but couldn't find it! Good job! Mr. Heart ^(talk) 05:14, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

A reliable source for specific Ukrainian polling data

I'm looking for a reliable source for this specific Ukrainian polling data:

https://trim-c.livejournal.com/101666.html

If you'll use Google Translate, you'll see that this data shows the percentage of various people in various Ukrainian oblasts in early 2014 who actually want Ukraine and Russia to unite and become one country. I managed to find some of this data (as in, this very same data for some Ukrainian oblasts) here (again, you can see this for yourself if you will actually use Google Translate), but not all of it:

https://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=rus&cat=reports&id=236

So, what exactly is the original source for all of the data in my first link here and where exactly can I find and access this source with all of its data? Futurist110 (talk) 05:21, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Wearing a belt among the Jews in the 2nd century AD

From what is said in the Babylonian Talmud in Tractate Shabbat, page 9b, it can be understood that in the time of Abba Arikha, Rabbi Hanina bar Hama and Zeiri (~ 2nd century AD), either the Jews in Babylon wore a belt and in Israel they did not (Option 1), or vice versa: the Jews in Babylon did not (Option 2).

Do you know which of the options is the correct one: Option 1 or Option 2?

From what I understand, the Jews in Babylon in the second century AD, were neighbors of the Zoroastrians who wore a belt (named Kushti), and the Jews in Israel lived at that time under the rule of the Roman Empire where the belt was also common. Thus, it is difficult to deduce from this which of the options is correct: option 1 or option 2. David (talk) 07:38, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Do you mean a girdle? Or a frying pan? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:22, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

I edited my title to make it clear David (talk) 09:56, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Did the Roman belt have any religious significance? If not, and I assume not, it's probably option 2. Temerarius (talk) 10:18, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

An ordinary Roman belt (cingulum) seemingly did not, but a particularly designed and ornamented belt (Cingulum militare or Balteus was worn by Roman soldiers. Since at this period Judea and other Jewish areas were under Roman military occupation (following a previous prolonged period of Greek occupation which had "hellenized" a proportion of the Jewish population), non-collaborating Jews might have preferred to eschew items more characteristic of their oppressors.

Note, incidentally, that according to our Disambiguation page Balteus, Jewish priests' girdles might be referred to by that name. Note also that, somewhat on the "No true Scotsman" principle, Jews who hewed to a more orthodox, anti-foreigner line might scorn hellenized or more cosmopolitan Jews as not properly Jewish and use the term to refer only to those of their own viewpoint. In the 1st Century, Pharisees (mostly anti-collaborationists) and Sadducees (often pragmatic collaborators, like Joseph ben Caiaphas; see also Titus Flavius Josephus) sometimes regarded each other as heretics. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.219.35.136 (talk) 13:45, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

עברית: See Rashi on that line of text, where he explains "הא לן והא להו - בני בבל היו חוגרין את עצמן בחוזק וכשאוכלין צריכין להתירם ובני ארץ ישראל לא היו נוהגין כן בהתרת חגורה קודם נטילת ידים:" ie the Jews in both Babylon and Palestine would wear belts, the difference being how they tied them, specifically, how tightly. Babylonians were accustomed to tightening their belts so stringently that they loosened them to begin a meal, and that this action could therefore be taken as signalling the "start" of a meal, but it didn't work for Jews from Palestine, as they wore belts more loosely. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 00:43, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Connections or references?

Why isn't there a Chicago (franchise) reference in the article about the Ghost Ship warehouse fire?2603:7000:8100:BD38:E545:9BD6:CED9:B04D (talk) 14:14, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Why would we include a reference to a fictional TV show in an article about a real life fire? Blueboar (talk) 15:52, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Also, last time I checked, Chicago is nowhere near Oakland. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:09, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

The Ghost Ship Warehouse Fire may have inspired a crossover/launch in the Chicago franchise. First there was a Chicago Fire/Chicago P.D. crossover, with a little Chicago Med thrown in. The crossover launched Chicago Justice. Dick Wolf may have seen stories about the aforementioned tragedy. He did two different Law & Order episodes based on the Happy Land fire and The Station nightclub fire, right?2603:7000:8100:BD38:48F2:9E3D:6988:2303 (talk) 20:42, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

1) Do you have any actual evidence that Dick Wolf took inspiration from this event or is it just speculation on your part? 2) Even if Wolf says that the fire was his inspiration, that would be something for articles about the TV shows, not the actual fire. It would be highly relevant for the programs but pretty inconsequential for the fire. --Khajidha (talk) 21:28, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Ok, so there might be a connection. Unfortunately, we need more than might be. To add something, we would need a reliable source that we can cite which confirms that an episode of the TV show was inspired by the real life fire. If you can find such a source, feel free to add a sentence and citation noting the inspiration to one of the articles.

Assuming you can substantiate the inspiration, I too would suggest that the better place to mention it would be within in the article on the TV show, where it is more directly relevant. Within the article on the real life fire it is essentially just a bit of irrelevant pop culture trivia, and many editors dislike having pop culture trivia sections in articles on more serious topics. (Ie you might get some pushback.) Blueboar (talk) 21:56, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't watch those shows, but in other Dick Wolf shows like the Law & Order series, the storylines are often "obviously" inspired by real-life events. At the same time, they always have a disclaimer that the shows do not portray actual events. Lots of things inspire lots of other things. That's the nature of art. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:15, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

I used to be amused by the discrepancy between those Law & Order disclaimers and the show's ads' assertion that the show was "ripped from the headlines". Deor (talk) 16:21, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

You can feel free to read the articles on the Happy Land fire and The Station nightclub fire. There may be some references.2603:7000:8100:BD38:48F2:9E3D:6988:2303 (talk) 05:03, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

OR... you could look for those references, and add something to the articles. Anyone can edit Wikipedia! Blueboar (talk) 12:09, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Josef K

The disambiguation page Josef K claims that the protagonists of the three Kafka novels The Trial, The Castle, and A Dream are all the same person. Is there any evidence for this? The hero of The Castle is just called K, and as far as I know Kafka never meant there to be a connection between K and Josef K. --Viennese Waltz 18:18, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

I fixed it; now it says it's the name of the protagonists. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 20:54, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Viennese Waltz that the protagonist in The Castle is just K., not Josef, and a different character. A separate question is whether the protagonists in The Trial and A Dream are identical. The German article points out that A Dream was written at the same time as The Trial, either as a stand-alone story (with the same protagonist) or possibly even as a chapter for The Trial (which is, after all, a fragment). The article does not mention or give references for the idea that the protagonists might not be the same character. --Wrongfilter (talk) 21:02, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

It has often been said that all novels are autobiographies, just as all paintings are self-portraits. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:27, 20 March 2021 (UTC)