Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2020 June 13

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June 13

Creator of the motto "Land of the free, home of the brave"

Who created the motto and nickname for the United States of America "Land of the free, Home of the brave"? What does it literally mean? Does it mean that the Constitution and Bill of Rights guarantees freedom of speech for example? I'm seeing this motto despite the U.S. having a high legal drinking age (21+), largest prison population on Earth, capital punishment, and police brutality on people of color like the George Floyd incident. However, I am not talking about and debating this topic on the Reference desk because this is not a place to debate. I only want to know the literal meaning of the motto. Thank you. 47.145.102.126 (talk) 04:33, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

"... the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave" are the last eleven words in each verse of The Star-Spangled Banner#Lyrics by Francis Scott Key, which is the current official national anthem of the United States.

If you want an ironic counterpoint by Leadbelly, a towering blues singer who ardently championed civil rights, was sympathetic to Communism and was no stranger to jails, see Bourgeois Blues which ends, according to one non-academic source as

Home of the brave, land of the free

I don't wanna be mistreated by no bourgeoisie

Lord, in a bourgeois town

Uhm, the bourgeois town

I got the bourgeois blues

Gonna spread the news all around

https://www.metrolyrics.com/the-bourgeois-blues-lyrics-leadbelly.html

However the version I remember (perhaps falsely from seeing a Pete Seeger documentary about Leadbelly several decades ago) ran "Home of the brave,/Land of the Free,/Don't get yourself arrested in Washington, D.C.,/'cause it's a bourgeois town ..." —— Shakescene (talk)

PLEASE CONFINE YOUR ANSWERS TO THE ORIGIN OF THE PHRASE RATHER THAN ITS VALIDITY. I just finished moving over a dozen irrelevant comments provoked by the OP's side comment to the talk pages of all those who debated how free the U.S. is, was, will be, isn't, wasn't or won't be to the talk pages of the contributors. I'm inclined to do the same (unless some other editor does it first) with other off-topic comments on a subject which I personally feel very strongly, but which don't belong here. What should be discussed here are questions such as whether Francis Scott Key created those phrases or if he drew them from some other written or popular source. —— Shakescene (talk) 18:40, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

When included in the anthem, the words "Land of the free, Home of the brave" can only be taken to mean whatever Francis Scott Key intended hem to mean. They are not part of American law (other than the law which names "the star spangled banner" as the U.S. anthem), and have zero binding force on U.S. policy. They have no binding power whatsoever in preventing America from enslaving or imprisoning people, or behaving with cowardice rather than bravery. (I'm not saying America lacks freedom or bravery - just that the anthem has zero legal powers in enforcing such behaviour).

Likewise, if others adopt the "motto", it means (to them) whatever they think or claim that it means. People are free to have their own ideas as to what they consider "freedom" or "bravery". 2001:8003:52A0:100:8C36:5014:F8A:E75F (talk) 19:09, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

I suspect, given the circumstances under which Francis Scott Key wrote those words (which I can't go into, but you can easily find on wikipedia), "freedom" meant freedom from foreign (i.e. British) rule. And "bravery" meant the bravery of those defending Fort McHenry (and America in general, perhaps) from being forced into submission by these British invaders. To understand this, you'd need to read up about the war of 1812, and the circumstances, under which Francis Scott Key wrote his words - I can't write a treatise on this, but perhaps some of my fellow wikipedians can provide links to Wikipedia articles which can give you the necessary background info. 2001:8003:52A0:100:8C36:5014:F8A:E75F (talk) 19:14, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

A thorough google search has failed to find anyone who thinks that Key didn't invent the phrase. Note that The Star-Spangled Banner only became the official national anthem in 1931, although it was very well-known for more than a century before that. To pick up on the pertinent point made by 2001 above, the earlier British patriotic song, Rule, Britannia! (1740), makes much of supposed British freedom, although the abolition of colonial slavery was almost a century into the future and universal adult suffrage another century after that. Alansplodge (talk) 19:25, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Where, mixed with the olive, the laurel shall wave,
And form a bright wreath for the brows of the brave.

— http://www.potw.org/archive/potw340.html

also Key for "To Anacreon in Heaven". Meter and rhyme considerations, not to take anything from the defenders of Fort McHenry. fiveby(zero)

I checked Newspapers.com (a pay site, and not comprehensive) and I couldn't find anything prior to 1814. That doesn't prove it wasn't in use by then. I found a site[1] which is one author's opinion on various parts of the lyrics, though he doesn't say where the phrase in question came from. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:33, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Citation for total population

At Afro-Polish in the infobox the total population is marked as "5,000-10,000"[1]. Where in this source is this figure located? --Gryllida (talk) 22:12, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

@Gryllida: Perhaps nowhere? There is an edit war happening on that number currently. RudolfRed (talk) 03:56, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Seems there's an ongoing edit war over that figure. As to that specific reference, I have no idea where that specific figure is. You should probably talk to the editor who added it. I'm guessing it involves actually using the website at the link and adding up figures rather than a plain statement of "The number of Afro-Polish people is X". Interestingly, prior to this edit war, the figure in the infobox was 4000-5000 and was cited to an article on "Expatica", the link to which was dead and not in the Internet Archive (with some Googling I was able to find it, but it also didn't have a figure). Curiously this figure and reference was present in the first revision of the article (the figure is hidden in a now-deprecated infobox field, but I assure you it's there).

The reference for the 5-10k number is in my opinion insufficient, not because it doesn't provide the number (I actually can't tell), but because the footnote doesn't explain how to use the reference to arrive at that figure, which should be required for a reference where WP:CALC is at play. I'm thinking that unless a better reference comes out, the best option is to remove the number entirely. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 04:04, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Not only that, but the article refers to "residents in Poland of African descent", whereas the source simply lists Country. Although not explained, the latter likely means country of origin (in other words, country immigrated from), which does not mean the same thing. 107.15.157.44 (talk) 07:43, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you - but what then? Sum up counts for all African countries manually? I would like to find at least some figures, from somewhere. Gryllida (talk) 00:44, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

There has been a discussion about this at my page also. Gryllida (talk) 01:53, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Would someone be able to verify the figures that an anonymous contributor posted at my talk page? Gryllida (talk) 20:32, 15 June 2020 (UTC)