Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2018 May 12

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May 12

Historical Jesus grab bag

I know we have precious little to go on for the historical Jesus, but bear with me, and point me in the direction of legitimate scholarship related to these questions. Or indulge in wild speculation. As you can tell, I'm not a scholar, and I'm probably asking the wrong questions. But (as a nonbeliever and fan of history) I'm thinking about these kinds of things in the context of a Jesus who almost certainly existed and was killed by the state, probably because he was a threat to the power structure.

If indeed the son of a carpenter, Jesus was probably too poor to have had a classical education in Greek philosophy. Which philosophical schools was he indirectly inspired by? Were any Greek/Roman philosophers popular in Judea at this time?

Were there other political figures who claimed--explicitly or implicitly--to be a messiah/from prophecy during Jesus' life? (Graves thought it was fun to imagine Herod [Agrippa IIRC] might have been one such.)

Were Jesus' followers a political party?

The Book of Acts starts with some pretty serious communism. Was Jesus a communist, a man of the plebs, a threat to the economic structure of rome, a frightening figure to the entrenched rich?

Did Jesus speak of himself in a way that sounded similar to the roman imperial cult? I don't remember him said to. But has there ever been any syncretism between Roman imperial cults and the deification of Jesus?

Was Jesus more threat to the power structure of Judea (that is, to Jewish priests and leaders,) or to Rome itself through Judea by proxy? Josephus blames the first Jewish/Roman war on Judas of Galilee, was Jesus likely also part of the political milieu that led to these wars?

And finally, are there any ancient (or even medieval) satirical accounts of Christians/Christianity similar to the Death of Peregrinus and Misopogon?

I understand that there's my own interpretation of things implicit here that I can't write a thesis for. Please tell me where my assumptions are wrong. Thank you for your time. Temerarius (talk) 01:42, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

There were various Messiah claimants running around, and the temple authorities had ways of getting rid of them. List of Jewish messiah claimants has at least one other considered notable. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:13, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth could be of interest, perhaps some sources at Historical Jesus and Christ myth theory is what you're looking for. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:14, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Our articles Christian communism, History of early Christianity, and Pauline Christianity might also be useful. Tevildo (talk) 09:32, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Not exactly satirical, but Gospel of Barnabas may be something. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:06, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Temerarius -- you're kind of going astray a little when you ask about Greek philosophy in the context of Jesus. In 1st century A.D. Judea, knowing Greek philosophy would not have given you any credibility as a Jewish religious leader, and most such really didn't care for it. (One word used as a deadly insult among ancient Rabbis, "Apikorsim", comes from the name of the philosopher Epicurus.) There's no evidence of significant influence on Greek philosophy on Christianity until there came to be a significant number of Christians who were not Judean Jews (i.e. after the death of Jesus)... AnonMoos (talk) 04:31, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

P.S. For a scurrilous insult directed at early Christianity, see the Alexamenos graffito... -- AnonMoos (talk) 04:38, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

"(One word used as a deadly insult among ancient Rabbis, "Apikorsim", comes from the name of the philosopher Epicurus.) There's no evidence of significant influence on Greek philosophy on Christianity until there came to be a significant number of Christians who were not Judean Jews (i.e. after the death of Jesus)..." The borrowed philosophical concepts in Christianity mostly derive from Platonism. Epicureanism was a materialist philosophical school and religiously skeptical. It specifically rejected the idea of devine intervention on human affairs. "Epicureanism does not deny the existence of the gods, rather it denies their involvement in the world. According to Epicureanism, the gods do not interfere with human lives or the rest of the universe in any way." Guess how the average Jew or Christian felt about this statement. Dimadick (talk) 06:05, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Epicurus personified everything that the ancient Jewish Rabbis hated about Greek philosophy, but there wasn't all that much they admired in it. Among Aramaic-speaking Jews in Judea in the late centuries B.C. and the 1st century A.D., there were some Persian influences on Jewish religion, but negligible Greek influences. Things were a little different among Jews outside Judea whose first language was Greek, notably in Alexandria, where people like Philo attempted to reconcile traditional Judaism and Greek philosophy. However, Philo was not a rabbi, or a conventional Jewish religious leader, and if you look closely at the New Testament, you'll notice that there's no mention of Alexandria as such, only a few passing mentions in the book of Acts to people and things which are Alexandrian, among which only the Apollos of Acts 18:24 is given a name. There are no reports of missionary journeys to Alexandria in the NT. As I said above, there's no evidence of significant influence on Greek philosophy on Christianity until there came to be a significant number of Christians who were not Judean Jews (which did not happen until after the death of Jesus)... AnonMoos (talk) 10:07, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

"Please tell me where my assumptions are wrong."

Temerarius, you're assuming Christ was a real person rather than a literary creation. Greco-Roman themes may have been introduced by the authors who wrote about Christ, some of whom may have been able to afford a classical education. As for the threat to the Romans-- in the story, Christ was condemned by Jews, some of whom (like the priests) would have been threatened by novel religious teachings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:2FC0:F:1E6:A4D0:891B:E602 (talk) 03:25, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

2604:2000:2FC0:F:1E6:A4D0:891B:E602 -- That's the Christ myth theory, which has little mainstream scholarly support. And the local Jewish authorities in the Roman province of Judea were not allowed by the Romans to inflict the death penalty. AnonMoos (talk) 03:50, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Why don't hospitals check the patient's insurance company to see whether the insurer is in-network or out-of-network?

I am aware that people can get unexpected out-of-network medical bills, which implies that the hospitals do not check the patient's insurer or the ability to pay. They likely just treat the patient and bill the patient afterwards. SSS (talk) 03:52, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

I've had minor procedures at various hospitals and they always check about insurance - especially if the procedure needs pre-authorization for whatever reason. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:09, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

This often happens when the provider is in-network, but then the insurance company decides that some specialist brought in for a consult, or the lab the group contracts with, is out-of-network. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:39, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

So, how does one figure out what part of the hospital (which person or group) is in-network or out-of-network? How does the insurance company make such a decision? Is there any way to prevent this from happening in the future? Do emergency ambulances also check for the ability to pay and insurer information? What happens if an out-of-network ambulance vehicle arrives in an emergency situation? Is there a way to immediately call an in-network emergency ambulance? SSS (talk) 12:30, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

SuperSuperSmarty -- see [1] for a company which has been accused of profiteering from out-of-network ER shenanigans, and [2] for general emergency room billing discrepancies. AnonMoos (talk) 04:52, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

• If the OP is referring to the United States (which they don't mention, so we cannot be sure), the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act is the relevant law. Hospitals, under federal law, cannot refuse to treat emergency conditions based on the patient's ability to pay. This is not in conflict with Bugs's statement, however, if his procedures were elective procedures, that would not qualify as an emergency. --Jayron32 12:31, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

  Is there any other country that has "out-of-network" hospitals? Genuinely wondering because it seems something that only happens in countries without universal health care which excludes all other first and second world countries afaict. Regards SoWhy 12:38, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

  I don't know the answer to that question, because the OP didn't provide which place they were talking about. I used context clues to deduce where they might be talking about. It would, of course, be helpful if the OP clarified, but I was going on the best information that I had. If they have somewhere else in the world in mind, perhaps they could tell us so we could be more helpful. --Jayron32 14:27, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

photo colorization

In the article about an iceberg, I saw a picture of the one suspected of sinking the RMS Titanic. But the picture is black and white. What would it look like colorized?2604:2000:7113:9D00:E489:B375:36EB:1AC5 (talk) 04:40, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

• • Umm.... It's an iceberg. It's white. Probably about the same Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 15:23, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

It's been speculated that the iceberg that hit the Titanic was a blue iceberg, but our article goes on to say (with references) that this is now seen as unlikely and that it was probably a normal pack ice iceberg (i.e. mostly white). And, Eddie891, if the linked article doesn't show you that icebergs don't have to be white, do a Google image search for coloured iceberg. Dismissing the question out of hand was not helpful. Matt Deres (talk) 22:17, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Regardless of the color of the iceberg, the marks on it which are thought to have rubbed off from Titanic could be colorized the same color as Titanic - but that would be introducing some bias into it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:35, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

"What would it look like colorized?" may be seen as asking for speculation, which we aren't supposed to do. Colorization could be used to add any colors to a picture no matter whether they make sense or not. However, if the question is really "What would it have looked like if color film had been used?", that's different. We're told that the two people who took the photographs did it because of the streak of red paint suggested the berg had hit a ship. So obviously the red streak on the base of the iceberg would resemble the red paint on the Titanic—I don't know if that was ever photographed in color, but I'm sure it was the same sort of paint used on many other ships at the time. Other dark areas on the berg would probably be gray-brown dirt, as is commonly seen on other icebergs. --76.69.47.55 (talk) 05:01, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

That would be a standard anti-fouling paint, identical to the paint used on many other ships of that era and still similar to anti-fouling paint used on many modern ships. Take a look at the colour of copper(I) oxide. PiusImpavidus (talk) 08:57, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Polar bears

Why no polar bears at south pole? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.2.20.13 (talk) 22:10, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

This may be a better question for the Science reference desk. Bus stop (talk) 22:17, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

They'd have to get there somehow. It's much the same reason there's no penguins in the arctic. However, convergent evolution has made birds very similar to penguins in the north (puffins, auks) and apex predators broadly filling the same niche as polar bears in the south (leopard seals). Matt Deres (talk) 22:21, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Here is some information on it. Bus stop (talk) 22:22, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Australia was once part of the same land mass as Antarctica, and it has no bears either, except maybe in zoos.[3] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:33, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Oh, but beware the vicious drop bears. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:26, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Look closely at the date of that article and for the revelation at the bottom. Akld guy (talk) 04:29, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

("This article was put together for April Fool's Day. Please note it expired at 12pm 1 April 2013. Drop Bears belong only in modern Australian mythology.") Bus stop (talk) 12:00, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Koalas, no matter how vicious they might happen to be in some circumstances, are not bears. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:41, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

See drop bear. I prefer Jagulars.-gadfium 06:13, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Don't forget the dreaded ROUS. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:48, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Why are there no polar bears in Antarctica? Bus stop (talk) 00:25, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

“Rags to riches” stories other than those written by Horatio Alger

What “rags to riches” stories are there, other than those written by Horatio Alger? Yellow Sunstreaker (talk) 22:58, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

The TV Tropes page on the subject is here. Tevildo (talk) 00:30, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

And there are quite a few versions of the trope where the protagonist does not follow Alger's morality at all. In The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck (1992–94), Scrooge starts out as an impoverished street kid and earns a fortune in the Klondike Gold Rush by his early 30s, in part due to hard work and ingenuity. But he is already a rather cynical and harsh person (due to negative experiences over the previous twenty years), and the further pursuit of wealth hardens him further. He is gradually loosing his morality. By his early 40s, Scrooge is a robber baron who cheats and steals the traditional lands of African tribes, employs mercenaries, and burns down an entire village. By his early 60s, Scrooge is the "Richest Duck in the World" but has become a misanthrope who views everyone with distrust or contempt, including his own sisters (who he used to adore). By his early 80s, Scrooge is a reclusive old man, who has seemingly given up on life. He has money, but no longer has anything else that matters. Dimadick (talk) 06:29, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

And there are some real life examples as well, Andrew Carnegie being a famous one. --Xuxl (talk) 12:57, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

• Have you tried reading the Wikipedia article titled Rags to riches? --Jayron32 14:29, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
  • It is a useless article, that focuses on historical nouveau riche and has few mentions of the fictional trope or its prevailance. I would be tempted to delete it, but I am mostly inclusionist. I have only nominated one article for deletion over the years. Dimadick (talk) 07:47, 15 May 2018 (UTC)