Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2018 January 2

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January 2

Has the United States, by definition, always been a colonial power since independence?

Was the American opposition to the colonialism of Great Britain and France and its continuation especially during and in the aftermath of the Second World War an example of hypocrisy or double standard that resulted from saltwater fallacy, the notion that colonialism only applies to oversea territories? The only major difference between the British Empire after Statute of Westminster and the United States was that the former was exploitative colonialism and the latter had always been settler colonialism. 70.95.44.93 (talk) 07:58, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Are you the one that said, four days ago, "Wikipedia is not a forum"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:05, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

How is that relevant to this? I was only quoting the official policy guideline for this site in order to get people to have actual discussion on improving articles instead of engaging in pointless argument that would never reach a consensus or succeed in persuading the opposing side. 70.95.44.93 (talk) 17:56, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

• The question can not be answered, since the answer depends on which definition of “colonial power” one uses. Blueboar (talk) 12:19, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

I am only asking this because the article on colonialism includes more traditional land empires like the Russian Empire as an example. I am aware that the article is not in its best but its improvement is the primary reason why I am asking this in the first place. 70.95.44.93 (talk) 17:56, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

It would not have considered itself such.

The USA's early westward expansion was not thought of as colonization, but the country's inevitable expansion into a territory it already considered part of its mandate. Manifest Destiny would be the article you want.

Of course, the people already living there would have described the situation very differently. ApLundell (talk) 15:28, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

• It depends on your definitions. First, define what you mean by colonialism, then decide if the U.S. took those actions at any particular time. Arguments can be made both ways depending on how you want to define your terms. --Jayron32 20:27, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

70.95.44.93: actually, the U.S. government didn't own any land at independence -- it was the individual states which had land claims. Reconciling the various state claims, persuading states to drop some of the more theoretical and remote claims, etc. was one of the tasks of the Continental Congress or Confederation Congress, culminating in the Northwest Ordinance of 1787... AnonMoos (talk) 02:03, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Claims like the Connecticut Western Reserve. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:14, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Article

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_policing_in_the_United_Kingdom

Why is there no article like this for the US? Benjamin (talk) 19:55, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Because you didn't create it? --Jayron32 20:11, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

I just wanted to be sure the information I was looking for wasn't already in another article, perhaps by a different name or scope I didn't realize. Are there sources? Benjamin (talk) 20:13, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Some issues seem to be covered by other articles, such as Mass surveillance in the United States, which is a large article leading to interesting places. Perhaps that will give you a start. --Jayron32 20:25, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

In the US it is more commonly referred to as "working undercover" (e.g. Undercover operation, see section: Plainclothes law enforcement). —2606:A000:4C0C:E200:3410:B2CC:5D3A:A0AC (talk) 09:50, 3 January 2018 (UTC)