Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2016 June 6

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June 6

Calling ex-Presidents "President"

I noticed that in Nixon's pardon, mentioned above, he's routinely referred to as "Richard Nixon". I've become accustomed to American sources referring to ex-US Presidents as "President X", as if they are still in office, which has always seemed interesting and exotic to my British eyes but I suppose is ironically equivalent to the way us Brits treat dead monarchs, rather than out-of-office politicians, but makes sense as former heads of state.

The Nixon document doesn't call him "President" though. Is this because the convention has come about in more recent times? Or is it an informal convention that isn't really rooted in official practice? Or something else, perhaps relating to Nixon personally? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:02, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

There is no specific rule or standard. Calling him "President Nixon" rather than "Mr. Nixon" or "Nixon" (or something else) is a matter of usage convention, degree of respect, tone, etc. To his face, I'm sure he was called "Mr. President" during the 20 years after he resigned (at least by anyone who wanted to keep working with him or stay friendly with him!). Former senators are called "Senator X" for life, etc. (There's a parallel in my law practice, sometimes I encounter a lawyer who used to be a judge, and it's a matter of judging the occasion to know when it's best to refer to the person as "Judge X" and when not to use the title (certainly I wouldn't call an adversary "Judge X" while arguing a case against him or her, for example).) Newyorkbrad (talk) 13:32, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

I remember news media were calling him 'Citizen Nixon' shortly after his resignation. Hayttom (talk) 13:53, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

If you're meeting someone face to face certainly, but there's a certain anonymity in a news report. Readers are likely to be confused if a newspaper calls someone "president" when they're not. On 13 March 1981 the New York Times commented

It is nearly two months since Jimmy Carter left the White House.

After Edward VIII abdicated he was downgraded to Duke of Windsor. Otherwise, nobility seem to keep their titles, but if the Queen steps in to remove an honour probably not. Service officers keep their rank at retirement, while Benedict has the title "Pope Emeritus". 151.224.133.26 (talk) 14:49, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

The official position at the time was that the ex-king reverted to the style he had at birth, viz Prince Edward, with no peerages or knighthoods; his successor then reappointed him (backdated) to the Orders of the Garter etc., and gave him a dukedom. (British Titles by Valentine Heywood, 1951.) —Tamfang (talk) 06:32, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

I remember reading about this in a Ms. Manners book when I was younger. The idea is that civil servants should be called by the title they held. I think it's the last job they held usually, but I could be wrong. It's the same idea as referring to a retired military officer by his or her rank. What I'm curious about is what the protocol when there are multiple high titles someone formerly held. Like Eisenhower, was he called President Eisenhower in retirement, or General Eisenhower? I'm guessing President, and I'm sure someone will argue it's because it's technically a higher military rank. Or Taft, who was Chief Justice of the United States after he was President. While he certainly would've been Chief Justice Taft while he was on the bench, I wonder how he was introduced at parties. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 14:54, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

No, I don't buy "higher military rank". The president is commander-in-chief of the military, but is not in any way whatsoever a part of the military. That's not a trivial distinction; it's symbolically very important, as it indicates that the military is under civilian control. --Trovatore (talk) 15:34, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Interesting stuff, thanks. Is the convention of referring to ex-Presidents as "President So-and-so" longstanding? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:11, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

I've never known it to be otherwise. It's not just presidents either. In the upcoming presidential debates, for example, I expect Clinton will be addressed as "Senator". That probably takes precedence over "Madam Secretary", which would refer to the more recent but less visible position. --Trovatore (talk) 15:30, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Possibly, though I know on Face the Nation some weeks ago, Bernie Sanders exclusively said "Secretary Clinton". —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 15:40, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Chaps, one of you is talking weeks and the other (sorry, Trovatore, if I guess your age wrong) 30-50 years... but I'm British, by longstanding, I mean more sort of longstanding! Did they do this in the 1930s? In the 19th century? 18th century? That kind of longstandin! :-) --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 18:02, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Also note that in the US South, it's was once common (and perhaps still is ?) to refer to former military officers by their final rank. Colonel Harland Sanders, the KFC founder, is one example. StuRat (talk) 18:44, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

He was officially entitled a Kentucky colonel. I don't know that he actually achieved that rank in the military. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:10, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

In the UK, once a Field Marshal, always a Field Marshal, but "other regular officers who attained the substantive rank of captain and above may use, and be addressed by, their rank on retirement from the Army". [1] Alansplodge (talk) 20:23, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

That's interesting. Frank Thornton, in an interview for American TV, explained that his character's style "Captain Peacock" was intended as a revealing solecism, because only officers above Captain get to keep the style. —Tamfang (talk) 06:30, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

I think he's mistaken, viz Captain Mainwaring who used his military title as a bank manager and therefore managed to retain it as a Home Guard rank. Alansplodge (talk) 14:47, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Usually if one meets a Captain in civvy street, he'll be a Captain RN, which of course is a far finer beast than the brown-job variety. It's generally seen as rather poor form for an army type to continue using a rank below major - and of course majors are notorious for hanging around golf clubs with dubious investment schemes, or inviting a likely young woman to have some madeira at a suitable point in the evening. DuncanHill (talk) 18:48, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Err, no, I think you're mistaken. You may remember that the Queens' former son-in-law was universally referred to as Captain Mark Phillips, despite him being an ex-Army captain. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 21:34, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

There appear to be no rules for the honorific given former US political office holders.. Post-presidency, Eisenhower typically was called by the news media "General Eisenhower." After being a governor, George Wallace was called "Judge Wallace." Edison (talk) 02:44, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

@Dweller: The traditional rule is that former presidents should not be referred to as "President Soandso" (or "Mr. President"). Miss Manners mentions that Thomas Jefferson was known simply as "Mr. Jefferson" after leaving office.[2][3] She is unequivocal: "The proper address is Senator Nixon, as it is Governor Reagan and Governor Carter." (That was in 1992.) The Emily Post Institute concurs that this is the formal rule but adds, "In an informal setting (such as a private lunch), it’s acceptable to use the title the ex-official held. Here, you could refer to former President Jimmy Carter as either 'President Carter' or 'Mr. Carter.'" [4] See also Slate Explainer [5] and The Straight Dope message board[6]. (However, there is another line of thought asserting "All U.S. presidents retain their title for life, so all former presidents are referred to as Mr. President or President [last name]."[7]) Mathew5000 (talk) 05:36, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

this user enquires the real life term which is utilized to describe the situation of "ghost protocol"

ghost protocol has been initiated. the entire organization has been dissolved. all support and extraction has been halted.FAMASFREENODE (talk) 15:32, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

I think, as a 'real life term,' it's generally used by ref. desk trolls. _Muffled ^Pocketed 15:45, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

If you're talking about Mission: Impossible – Ghost Protocol, you're probably best off looking for a fan forum. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:30, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

He asked the same question at the Entertainment desk. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:38, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

But I'm not entertained. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:06, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Oh, the Humanities! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:08, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Maybe SNAFU or FUBAR. Derelict and Skeleton crew might be relevant. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:43, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

@SemanticMantis:snafu and fubar describe mission failure and do not entail dissolution of organization with total withdrawal and denial of existanceFAMASFREENODE (talk) 21:08, 6 June 2016 (UTC)