Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 October 12

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October 12

Other Examples of Colonial Partitions

Were there ever any other cases besides the 1947 Partition of Palestine and the 1947 Partition of India in which a colonial/imperial power (or the United Nations, et cetera) divided its colony (or whatever its proper name is) into two or more countries along ethnic/racial/religious/et cetera lines before giving these countries their independence? I hope that my question here is clear enough. Thank you very much. Futurist110 (talk) 08:00, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Somewhat related is when the Pope created the Line of Demarcation, giving the "old world" to Portugal and the "new world" to Spain. The Portuguese did get to colonize Brazil, though. StuRat (talk) 11:14, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Partitioning of the Ottoman Empire. This pretty much drew the map of the Middle East, and not always wisely. StuRat (talk) 11:24, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Practically all the borders in Africa were drawn without any regard at all for ethnic or national coherence - tribal areas and kingdoms were arbitrarily divided between different colonies. The consequences have blighted the continent ever since. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:48, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Partition of Ireland. Technically not separated into two independent countries but figured I'd throw it in anyway.Biggs Pliff (talk) 13:05, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Out of the many responses to this question, no offense, but you were one of the few people who understood what I meant here. Futurist110 (talk) 19:26, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Partitions of Poland. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:23, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Although Poland was partitioned at the start of colonization - the OP is asking about the other end. Alansplodge (talk) 14:36, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

The "before giving these countries independence" thing is a bit tricky since some might claim they weren't independent until the partition, even if the 'partitioned' was for years. That said the Cyprus dispute, United Nations Transitional Administration in East Timor and even Separation of Panama from Colombia. Also when Simon Bolivar died many nations declared their "independence" by partition. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 14:33, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, yeah, I meant that these colonies would get partitioned and then become independent. Futurist110 (talk) 19:26, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Not quite what you're looking for, but Partition of Babylon gives some interesting context. As with some of the other partitions mentioned, many parts were more of a re-partitioning from before they got collected together. Matt Deres (talk) 17:08, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. For the record, I think that most of the people who responded to my question here misunderstood it. I meant cases of partition specifically along ethnic/racial/religious/et cetera lines, rather than some country/countries simply drawing lines on a map without regards for the ethnicity/race/religion/et cetera of the population(s). Futurist110 (talk) 19:26, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

I've never heard it referred to as "the Partition of New South Wales", but that's exactly what happened, many times. At States and territories of Australia is a gif map showing the creation of the colonies/states and mainland territories. New South Wales at one point contained all of what is now NSW, Victoria, Tasmania, Queensland, South Australia, the Northern Territory, the Australian Capital Territory, Jervis Bay Territory, Norfolk Island and New Zealand. All the bits were progressively lopped off, in NZ's case becoming a separate nation.

NSW never contained any part of what is now Western Australia; and curiously that state is the only Australian jurisdiction that ever made a serious attempt to secede from the rest of the nation. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:24, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

This partition was not along ethnic/racial/religious lines, though, which is what I was asking about here. Futurist110 (talk) 19:27, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Quite right. My deepest and most abject apologies. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 16:24, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

The Constitutional Act of 1791 divided Canada into Upper Canada and Lower Canada - the "Lower" part being the core of what had previously been the French colony of Canada, conquered by the British in 1763 and essentially modern Quebec, and the "Upper" part being the part where English-speaking Loyalist settlers had fled during the American Revolution, essentially the modern Canadian province of Ontario. Britain also divided the former French colony of Acadia into modern New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. The Acadians were expelled in 1755, and during the Revolution, English-speaking Loyalists settled in what would become New Brunswick (although Nova Scotia became English-speaking as well since the Acadians were no longer there). These were the four provinces that became independent (more or less) as Canada in 1867. Adam Bishop (talk) 20:34, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

The creation of Lebanon certainly qualifies. Likewise the other modern Arab states are largely drawn on colonial lines, but in the case of Lebanon the borders were consciously drawn by the French to create a Christian-majority state. --Soman (talk) 13:33, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Another, perhaps more controversial case, is how borders of USSR Central Asian republics were drawn when the Turkestan ASSR was split. It's difficult to say that the relationship between Moscow and Central Asia was 'colonial', but there are some aspects to it. --Soman (talk) 13:39, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

There was certainly a colonial aspect to Russian expansion into Asia, and to the USSR's policies towards non-Russian inhabitants of its borders. See Russification. --Jayron32 12:21, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Was a Comprehensive Encyclopedia like Wikipedia Ever Imagined in Science Fiction or Fantasy?

I was wondering if any science fiction stories mention Wikipedia or something similar to it; the closest thing I can think of is the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. I would think it would be mentioned in some kind of cyber punk novel featuring a lot of computer use, but I've seen very few journalists even in cyber punk for that matter. Or alternatively is there an idea like Wikipedia in a fantasy novel; like a seemingly all knowing book; kept magically up to date?— Preceding unsigned comment added by CensoredScribe (talk • contribs) 12:49 October 2013

Isaac Asimov came up with the Encyclopedia Galactica in his Foundation (novel) series. Published first as a short story in 1942. 220 of ^Borg 15:42, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

I believe Carl Sagan also referred to the Encyclopedia Galactica in his Cosmos TV series (and presumably the book of the same name). StuRat (talk) 01:53, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

H.G. Wells had the World Brain (WB) but not as far as I know as a part of a novel or similar. He expounded the idea in essays and addresses. 220 of ^Borg 16:31, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

The people in The Machine Stops could be seen as dystopic Wikipedians and in ORA:CLE there are experts that link electronically, not unlike this reference desk. --Error (talk) 19:09, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Interestng, I haven't heard of either of those, though I have read a lot of Sci-Fi. ORA:CLE only links to the authors' page unfortunately. As it received a French literary award perhaps it should have its own page? -§- 220 of ^Borg 8:58 pm, Today (UTC−4)

Yes, it should. I was surprised nobody has done it yet. --Error (talk) 00:48, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

• Borges's The Library of Babel, although I haven't read it. μηδείς (talk) 00:30, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

The Forerunner civilisation in the Halo-universe have/had such an universal source of information. Their heavy dependence upon it, contributed in part to their destruction as a consequence of war. Though, for the life of me, I cannot remember the name of that source. Plasmic Physics (talk) 02:18, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

The concept of a database with a compendium of all knowledge is somewhat common, even if it isn't explicitly discussed as the core of a story. Picture all the times in the various Star Trek series that someone asks the computer for information on something - they know it will have the information and use it casually, much like someone searching on Wikipedia or Google today in order to answer whatever question has come to mind. I'm having trouble coming up with other concrete examples right now, but I know I've seen the same kind of interaction in other sci fi. Katie R (talk) 14:15, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

For a fantasy example, the god of knowledge in Dragonlance constantly writes a book containing documenting the events around the world, from moment to moment. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite

There is Dr. Know in A.I. Artificial Intelligence. 122.111.240.138 (talk) 13:27, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

18th-century Spies

How would normally as spy be recruited during the 18th century? Where there any general way of doing this? Where there female spies in Europe during this century? Thank you. --Aciram (talk) 13:54, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Don't know if it answers your question, but our article spy gives some historical information. Duoduoduo (talk) 14:25, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Aciram -- I assume that it could differ greatly depending on the person's social background, and which level of society they would be expected to operate in... AnonMoos (talk) 18:23, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

There is a category for female wartime spies. From the American Revolution, there is Sarah Bradlee Fulton and Miss Jenny. Adam Bishop (talk) 20:06, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

It's possible most spies then were women, as like the later Mata Hari men had the info, and ladies have ways of getting it. O:-] 220 of ^Borg 02:51, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

• The basic methods have always been pretty much the same: (1) bribery; (2) exploitation of divided loyalty, due to religion, ancestry, family ties, or whatever; (3) blackmail or other threats. Looie496 (talk) 04:54, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Nuclear tridents

Does "nuclear trident" get much use, either intentionally or unintentionally, for "nuclear triad"? It seems a plausible error (I just made it myself) and thus perhaps a plausible redirect, but all the pages I'm finding with Google are talking about nuclear-tipped Trident missiles. Nyttend (talk) 16:00, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

When I saw the title of this thread, my first thought was the missile, but then the phrase "nuclear triad" was unknown to me until a few seconds ago. In the UK, there was much debate about whether we acquire Trident in the first place and now over whether we should replace it and with what. [1] [2] [3]. It is our only strategic nuclear weapon, so for us, "Trident" and "nuclear deterrent" are interchangeable. Alansplodge (talk) 17:08, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

When I saw the title, my first thought was there is a glowing new bubble gum ;-). ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 19:39, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

"4 out of 5 nuclear scientists recommend Trident nuclear missiles for those nations which use nuclear missiles." StuRat (talk) 01:58, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

With 50 percent more cavities. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:31, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but it's all for the crater good. StuRat (talk) 22:44, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

^{[Citation Needed]} ;-) --220 of ^Borg 09:44, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Nothing like a good trident joke to 'gum up the works' on here lol. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 02:48, 14 October 2013 (UTC)