Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 November 12

Welcome to the Wikipedia Humanities Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

November 12

help me identify this (traditional?) melody.

Tom Waits performs a song based on Jack Kerouac's famous book On The Road. The melody of the chorus of this song provokes a strong nostalgic and emotional reaction in me, but I'm unable to determine exactly what it reminds me of:

(see 1:07, 2:15, 3:02, in this youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgE9fqMTvTk

I almost think it relates to a campfire song we used to sing in Boy Scouts when I was a child, or perhaps it is a frequently used melody in certain kinds of American folk music.

Can anyone help identify this melody, or perhaps tell me what traditional song(s) it is similar to?

--Jerk of Thrones (talk) 00:15, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm not an expert, but it sort of reminded me of In My Time of Dying, the Led Zeppelin version. Hot Stop talk-contribs 05:45, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

The song is "Home I'll never be" from the album Orphans: Brawlers, Bawlers & Bastards. The melody is an original but could quite reasonably be described as traditional without referring to any specific song.2A01:E34:EF5E:4640:6061:C42A:B70E:EF09 (talk) 15:14, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I listened to the Orphans version just now, and it's quite different! The one I linked to was performed with Waits and Primus (band) and features Les Claypool's distinctive fretless banjo-bass (which has been made famous for being frequently used in South Park). But both versions are very moving to me, thought the Waits+Primus version makes stronger use of that melody I'm trying to find out about. I was able to recollect at least one song that employs a vaguely similar melody. It's a racist minstrelsy song called "Darkie Sunday School" or "Young Folks Old Folks" which is about silly, modernized versions of Bible stories as told by ignorant Negroes. (Here's a version that doesn't quite use the melody I had in mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fipZz0yhjRI and here's an amatuer, non-racist version where the melody is more similar to what I had in mind http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQJu_8Nb6N0 and here are amusing and interminable lyrics: http://www.whitetreeaz.com/yfof/yfofword.htm) But the question is still driving me crazy because now I really want to know the origin of this melody....--Jerk of Thrones (talk) 18:33, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

The song itself is really - like so many others - a very basic I-IV-V blues progression in C; the specific arrangement you link to makes very effective use of slide banjo to give a very nice although slightly anachronistic dust bowl feel which accords well with the lyrics.

The thing about blues melodies though is that there really aren't that many of them, so whilst it's not at all impossible that this song is using the same melody as a song you know, it's also quite certainly using the same melody as a lot of other songs.

Keep looking for your tune; you never know what you might find along the way. 2A01:E34:EF5E:4640:3042:25DE:E5B4:D8E8 (talk) 19:51, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Does anyone have any idea what Akrit Jaswal does now?

There's nothing on him since 2005, on this article. I wished to find updates about him. Maybe you can for us? Thanks. --2602:30A:2EE6:8600:D59D:C79F:6214:1B7 (talk) 03:26, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

He was on Oprah Winfrey’s talk show in 2010; the show materials say “Akrit is now 17 years old and working on a master's degree in applied chemistry.” I can’t find that he’s published any academic articles yet. See what others turn up. Taknaran (talk) 14:57, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

emily warren paintings

i have a painting of hers 7 x 10 parliment ottawa. who do i contact about this painting — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.59.203.121 (talk) 03:27, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

You mean you want to have it valued? I would take it to an auction house, they have art specialists there who would probably be willing to give you an approximate valuation. They could also probably tell you how much other similar paintings by her have fetched recently at auction, which would give you a good idea of its current value. --Viennese Waltz 03:31, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Auction prices for various of her paintings range from $3(?) up to $1663. [1] YMMV. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:02, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Fatimah

In the article Fatimah these two edits were made and then reverted. They are related to File:Muhammad 19.jpg which was obtained from here. If the caption of the external link is correct then the woman in the foreground is Fatimah and the woman to the left of Muhammad is Aisha. Further up the page is another image of Fatimah, File:Siyer-i Nebi - Muhammad gibt Fatimas Hand Imam Ali.jpg, where she is standing to the left of Muhammad and being married to Ali. Now given that the marriage image shows both Muhammad and Aisha with their faces hidden by holy fire is it likely that the second one would show her face but hide the others? Can anyone find a reference that would indicate if in the first picture the woman is really Aisha or is someone else such as a servant. For anyone unsure as to why the faces are hidden in flame see depictions of Muhammad. I'll also post at the language desk to see if someone can read the Arabic in the images. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 06:27, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Don't know how one is supposed to tell that it's a woman, but in File:Muhammad 19.jpg, the red-clothed person does appear to have "Fatimah" written above... AnonMoos (talk) 09:08, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure File:Muhammad 19 is in Ottoman Turkish ("وودلر" is presumably "daughters"? I also see "turanlar" which is obviously Turkish), but the first couple of names at the top are Umm al-Mu'mineen (i.e. Aisha) and Umm Salama...there is another Umm in there but I can't make out who that is. The three women with the Holy Fire are labelled, right to left, Fatima, Umm al-Mu'mineen, and Umm Salama, but I'm not sure who the girl is. Fatima is mentioned in the text at the bottom as well. File:Siyer-i Nebi - Muhammad gibt Fatimas Hand Imam Ali.jpg is also not in Arabic except for various names and titles, but the woman is labelled Fatima. Adam Bishop (talk) 09:33, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks folks. It's possible if the third one has Umm as well it could be Umm Kulthum bint Muhammad. CambridgeBayWeather (talk)

I was thinking that too but that's not what the inscription says...it looks like "Umm al-abmun"? I don't know, I must be missing something. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:42, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

After staring at it some more, I think it must be "Umm al-Ayman", Muhammad's nursemaid and later wife of Zayd ibn Harithah. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:22, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks again. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 05:04, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Suicide of Amanda Todd

Just inquiring about who is the author/s of the following article; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Amanda_Todd

Thankyou Muchly, Alex McKnight-Rhodes — Preceding unsigned comment added by DVince05 (talk • contribs) 09:16, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Like all Wikipedia articles, it's a collaborative work of many editors, some of whom have registered usernames, some of whom choose to edit anonymously. You can see the full list of editors who have made changes to the article here. --Viennese Waltz 09:33, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

To be clear, on Wikipedia some (much!) editors' work is "reverted", i.e. undone by someone else, and more may be substantially rewritten, so when you read the list keep in mind that not all of them actually created text you see in the article. Wnt (talk) 14:56, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

The tool Wikipedia:WikiBlame allows you to see who added some particular bit of text in the article and when. You clock on "View History" and then "Revision history search." Edison (talk) 15:43, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

What does Muslim proselytism look like?

I have seen several Christians proselytizing on street corners, to selected houses in neighborhoods, and generally promoting their organization in a big courtyard. I have seen one Buddhist monk-to-be promoting Buddhism. But I have never encountered a single Muslim proselytize. I don't even know what a Muslim proselytism look like. Do they even proselytize openly? 140.254.229.115 (talk) 16:41, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Here in Germany, they look just like evangelical Christians (though often with Better Beards (tm)). They have a table (often side-by side with other groups - Christians, Animal Liberation, Pirate Party, Free Energy are favorites ;-) in the pedestrian area of the town, and hand out flyers and copies of the Qur'an. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:13, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Wow. They must be inured to seeing people toss them in the trash... :) Wnt (talk) 19:37, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

All proselytisers have this to deal with. And much worse. Because they know in advance what they're up against, they have my respect for having the courage of their convictions. So I'm always polite when declining to accept their material or their message. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:44, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I have to agree with you there. I have a lot more respect for them now, since I've engaged in proselytism before. Plasmic Physics (talk) 04:58, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Just to clarify: Just like Christian proselytizers don't throw Bibles at passers-by, the Muslim proselytizers I have seen don't just press a Qur'an onto random people. They offer them in case someone shows signs of genuine interest. That said, as far as I know, only the original Arab language version of the Qur'an is strictly holy. So while throwing away a German-language or English language copy may cause offense, and would be in bad taste, it won't necessary be considered blasphemous (at least not by the more reasonable fraction - the unreasonable fringe of any religion will be much easier to anger). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:21, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Do well-educated American Black people lose their African American Vernacular Accent?

Do well-educated American Black people lose their African American Vernacular Accent, or is the accent slightly milder or less pronounced? 140.254.229.115 (talk) 17:16, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Many of them have control over several linguistic registers (as many others also do), and can tone it down or turn it up depending on their comfort level and the context of the situation... AnonMoos (talk) 17:27, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

AnonMoos is referring to code switching. The OP's question implies a lot of false premises, such as that all American blacks talk one way, or that having a certain accent implies a lack of education, or that there's something particular about blacks that differentiates their ability to intentionally change their speech habits from the ability of other groups to do so. If anything, there's a certain prestigious "urban" speech you'll see in certain music videos that a lot of adolescent black and white males invest a lot of time in becoming fluent in. The OP may simply have the question backwards. μηδείς (talk) 17:36, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Not just African-Americans. Comedian Jeff Foxworthy said about the white Southern accent "...nobody wants to hear their brain surgeon say, 'Al’ight now what we're gonna do is, saw the top of your head off, root around in there with a stick and see if we can't find that dad burn clot.’ [2] Rmhermen (talk) 18:43, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

What Foxworthy is referring to is sociolect as well as dialect. The four most impressive speakers of English I have ever met were a black highschool dropout from Harlem, who sounded like an upper-middle-class John Facenda, and three Southern women: a philosophy professor from Atlanta, whose old-style Southern accent would put any East Anglian to shame, and a white woman and a Cherokee from the Virginia/North Carolina border, whose untutored Southern dialects would have been perfect for any Shakespearean noblewoman. μηδείς (talk) 19:28, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Medeis -- Code switching is mixing elements from different languages or dialects together in one's speech. Register control is changing one's style of speech appropriately according to different social situations. They're almost opposites... AnonMoos (talk) 19:07, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Well, if someone is "toning it down or turning it up according to their comfort level," I take that to mean they are mixing elements of formal and vernacular dialect, like RP and Geordie, or Brooklynese and American Broadcast Standard. You'll also notice I didn't say AnonMoos was entirely wrong, and he didn't mean to say linguistic register. I know you love to nitpick and point out others' blunders, but you'll forgive me if I'm not going to add caveats and footnotes to my comments to avoid you finding something to complain about. Readers here will profit by checking out code switching. μηδείς (talk) 19:19, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Register control could mean using formal standard English in situations where this is appropriate, and using one's most casual (or "basilectal") form of speech with close family and friends, without much mixing of the two. Someone who tries to approximate standard speech by mixing some features of standard English in with his non-standard dialect (i.e. code-switching) isn't doing as good a job of register control as someone who simply speaks full standard English, without mixing of diverse speech styles. As a practical matter, code-switching does often occur in the speech of many who try to adjust their registers, but code-switching is not a necessary part of register adjustment, and the two things are really not the same... AnonMoos (talk) 10:47, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

What is the "African American Vernacular Accent"? I'm not asking in a sarcastic way, I' actually not aware of what is being referred to here.Phoenixia1177 (talk) 19:27, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I took it as meaning the traditional Black American English (He be speakin') with a mixture of what used to be called Jive, i.e., African American Vernacular English, on top "Word, nigga, you ain't frontin'". μηδείς (talk) 19:31, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Oh, so this is just racism dressed up in fancy sounding phrases. Thanks (though I'm a bit sadder having the answer...)Phoenixia1177 (talk) 19:59, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Racism is the direct or indirect attribution of moral attributes based on ultimately physiological characteristics: e.g., "Orientals are sneaky", "Blacks are lazy." The mere recognition of fact, if it is fact, "There are varieties of English associated largely with black Americans", "There are a lot of nail salons in California owned by Vietnamese", is not in itself racist per se. That's not to say people who make such observations don't sometimes immediately follow them up with racist conclusions. But linguists are perfectly capable of describing real and existing language phenomenawithout casting moral aspersions. μηδείς (talk) 21:32, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I can see where it would look like I was saying the linguistics topic was racist, but what I meant was that the question is racist, just hiding behind fancy terms- specifically the assumptions about education, speech pattern, and race. I don't find anything problematic with observing and classifying speech patterns. --though, on reflection, I can imagine that this isn't so much a racist question, but that you could read it as a question that involves some bad assumptions. My initial, albeit sleepy, reading of the question was as "Do blacks speak correctly once they're taught better?". By the way, thanks for McWhorter link, I'll check that out:-)Phoenixia1177 (talk) 09:42, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Oh, yes, my first fear on reading the question was that it was more baiting from the Toronto IP. The question implies a certain lack of sophistication in such matters, but the attitude is common enough that I don't think we have to assume any active racist intent.

John McWhorter is a "black" linguist who has written a lot on these issues if you are interested. Most libraries carry his books. We have a good article on him. μηδείς (talk) 21:36, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

To clarify: to my knowledge, "African American Vernacular English" is the term preferred by linguists who study such things -- the term itself is intended to be scientific an neutral. As to the OP, I assume good faith. The issue is somewhat racially charged, but I think it can be interpreted as an honest question without racist undertones. The above answers have already pointed out the key concepts and links, so I think we've done decently well here. SemanticMantis (talk) 20:44, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

African Americans cannot be reliably distinguished from white Americans by their speech. I'm not denying that there is such a thing as African American Vernacular English. However, I deny that it is exclusive to African Americans and that all African Americans can speak that variety of English. Some young white people, especially in urban environments, often adopt features of AAVE. Many (especially middle class) black people speak more or less standard English as their native language. Anecdotally, I remember sitting in a bus in San Francisco once listening to a woman who spoke just like my (white) grandmother. I turned around to see that it was an elderly black woman. My grandmother grew up in poverty in rural Texas in the early 20th century. During the mid-20th century, many poor rural black Texans migrated to California. Speech in America often has more to do with geography and class than with race. Marco polo (talk) 20:55, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. Black Americans can often be recognized by their speech, although certainly some sound "white" just as some whites sound "black," such as young urban male white who cultivate black speech, "Yo?" The judge in the OJ Simpson trial interrupted a witness who said she had heard an African-American man shouting to announce that it was impossible to distinguish race from speech, and his declaration was ridiculed by some. Listeners to a phone call can typically tell when a Black person is calling. I often speak to people on the phone before I meet them in person, and the impression over the phone is usually verified. And it is typically distinguishable from Southern White speech though southern white speech sounds more like typical black speech than does northern white speech. . I expect it is a cultural thing preserved over the generations from speech patterns in African countries of origin. But African Americans raised in the North, if their parents are educated professionals, often speak with accent, voice quality, and phrasing which is indistinguishable (to me) from that of their Northern white peers. Edison (talk) 20:21, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

A lot of black Americans have very interesting and sometimes disturbing stories relating to this question. Howard Stern co-host Robin Quivers grew up in a tough part of Baltimore with abusive, yet educated parents. When she speaks, you won't detect the slightest trace of AAVE. This is because, as a child, if she came home speaking or using slang like her friends her parents would beat her. They wanted her to speak "like a white person" so she would have better opportunities in life--Jerk of Thrones (talk) 11:30, 13 November 2013 (UTC).

Black towns and cities in North Africa

Is Tawergha, Libya the only place in Libya and Maghreb that had a black population due to history of slavery or other historical reasons? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.20.195 (talk) 18:35, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

The North American concept of "black" (and the slightly different European and Australian concepts of "black") do not correspond to a category used by people in North Africa, so your question can't really be answered. In fact, there are people indigenous to every North African country except maybe Tunisia who would be classified as "black" by many people of European origin. Marco polo (talk) 20:47, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

We have articles on Slavery in the Ottoman Empire, Arab slave trade, Islam and Slavery which may be helpful. Rmhermen (talk) 23:04, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Crossing the Bering Strait

Did humans, before the European colonization of America, crossed the Bering Straight more than once at different times? Is there any evidence that the Yupik people, who populates both sides of the Straight knew of the other side in ancient times? Did they have anything like legends, myths and such? OsmanRF34 (talk) 21:17, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, there were at least three separate major waves into America from Asia, the Amerind peoples (controversial with some linguists as not unitary), Na-Dene peoples, and Eskimo-Aleut peoples. The Yupik in Asia originated in North America. The name Alaska derives from the Aleut alaxsxaq which means "the other side" (from the point of view of the Aleutian islands looking across the water to the mainland). Local people are always aware of their local geology, so of course the Yupik knew there were two large land masses separated by what we call the Bering. That doesn't mean they knew they were on the border between the Americas and Eurasia any more than Celts in Spain knew they were on the western edge of Eurasia or the Egyptians knew they were on the third planet orbiting Sol. μηδείς (talk) 21:49, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Some of them crossed gayly, especially when it wasn't so Straight and narrow. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:27, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Some of them got too close to the edge of the ice, and found themselves in Serious Straits. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:30, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

As Craig Ferguson would say, Cf, Yer a racist. μηδείς (talk) 04:27, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

You forgot to roll the 'r', Scottish style. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:30, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Actually, no, I didn't. I just don't know how one spells that. μηδείς (talk) 05:51, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

• I believe it's "Ye⟨r⟩" SemanticMantis (talk) 17:50, 13 November 2013 (UTC)