Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 June 24

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June 24

US executive order number

Do I remember rightly that all US federal executive orders have unique ID numbers? If so, what's the number for this one? I'd like to shorten a header at Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, but "Executive Order by President Barack Obama Dated February 12, 2013" is the simplest solution unless you can find the order's number. Nyttend (talk) 03:47, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

13636. See List of United States federal executive orders 13489–Present. Rojomoke (talk) 04:04, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Franco-Spanish Union's language

A hypothetical question. From what I read, the Spanish and the French were on the verge of union into one empire in the early 1700s during the War of the Spanish Succession; had the French-Spanish coalition been able to defeat the coalition, Louis would have been able to give the right to French succession to Philip V of Spain, possibly uniting the two Bourbon kingdoms. Had this happened though, an obvious problem with it I would see is the language difference; while French and Spanish are romance languages, they are certainly different. If the kingdoms were united, based on the historical context, is it likely the kingdoms would be bilingual, make one language the official language or the other, or try to "blend" the languages? Thanks! 64.229.207.42 (talk) 04:15, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

French and Spanish (Parisian and Castilian) are easily as far apart as English and German. A "Lingua Franca" based on a Western Romance dialect between Provencal and Catalan would be an imaginable compromise linguistically. But the truth is that by 1700, the standards of Madrid and Paris were far enough apart that mutual intelligibility between those dialects would be unimaginable, even though their written dialects are quite close grammatically. Compromises like this almost never work. Instead, look at the Austro-Hungarian Empire as a model. μηδείς (talk) 05:16, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

On a working level, perhaps French would have been better understood in the Spanish court than vice-versa. There was also the Mediterranean Lingua Franca although our article says that it was used more in the eastern Med. Alansplodge (talk) 07:14, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

So we are answering hypothetical questions now. Fine, just as long as I know. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 08:19, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

As I'm passing by, may I add "my pinch of salt" : I have spoken every day during many years (as an occupational MD) to spanish average people who had come to work & live in France decades ago - and also to french people having lived in Spain for many years. And fom the way they all talked their neighbour's tongue, I can assure you that (apart from among the élites) there NEVER 'll exist a common correct franco-spanish tongue. BTW, mind the expressions : "parler francais comme une vache espagnole" (to speak french like a spanish cow) - & "hablar el espan~ol (lo siento, no tilde en mi teclado frances) como un carapacho". Of course, future may prove I'm wrong, but I doubt it. Moreover, our becoming europeans has increased among us only the practice of english (or should I say "globish") T;y; Arapaima (talk) 08:43, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

There was briefly a union between England and Spain. Apart from Prince Philip who couldn't speak English, I would imagine that Spanish was spoken in the Spanish court and English in the English counterpart. Alansplodge (talk) 12:39, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

King Philip, actually. Philip was at the time king of England, Ireland and Naples, and later also of all the Spanish kingdoms. He was the first English monarch in centuries not to speak English, which is why it was ordered that a note of all matters of state should be made in Latin or Spanish. As you say, of course, the situation led to no linguistic mutation. I believe the closest example would be the union of the kingdoms of Denmark and Norway. This union (very simply put) led to the emergence of Bokmål, a Norwegian adaptation of Danish which would have been called Dano-Norwegian had the proposition not lost by one parliament vote. Surtsicna (talk) 14:32, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

French and Spanish are much closer to each other than English and German. Actually, modern English is probably closer to the neo-Latin languages than it is to its Germanic cousins. --Immerhin (talk) 18:29, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

• As I understand it the question here is not what language the common people would have spoken, but rather what language would be used for administration. Since France was the dominant partner at that time, the only possibility for a single administrative language would be French, but given the general prickliness of the Spanish about foreigners it seems very unlikely to me that they would have tolerated a French-based bureaucracy. Looie496 (talk) 15:02, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

It is most likely that the kingdoms would have been bilingual. French would have been used in the court in Paris and among any court officials in Madrid, and high-level administrators and military officers active in Spain would have had to know French, but for everyday administration in Spain, for example in the courts, the local language would have been used. Quite possibly, moving the power center from Madrid to Paris would have allowed an earlier resurgence of Catalan in Catalonia. Early modern kingdoms covering more than one linguistic region tended to operate in multiple languages. A case in point is the Habsburg realms. Marco polo (talk) 19:56, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

The earlier Portuguese-Spanish Union can serve as a model. --Error (talk) 23:27, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Pain & suffering?

Son had accident - with Harley 2 yrs.ago, has son sole heir, my other son is executor, has completed, pain & suffering, or wrongful death, son received monies, plus deceased work insurance. Accident has been ruled accident, driver coout of KFC? bad location in Bridgeville, pa. did not see our son, son had startereadking 70 feet before, driver did not stop, son then went into left lane to avoid him, driver was turning left into traffic, left rather then right? he then hit my son.......... 850 lbs fell on top of him, lived 2 weeks, alleg. general trauma, induced sleep, 2 operations, unbelievable, as a Mother can I file for pain & suffering, or anything against driver, for negligence? or anything? my son is gone, ???? a nightmare. can I do anything? his son will be taken care of,

Dixie — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.120.188.34 (talk) 12:52, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

We can't help you I'm afraid, you need to go and see a lawyer. --Viennese Waltz 12:58, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you need to consult a local lawyer who can advise you on the law in your area and apply it to your particular facts. There is usually no charge for an initial consultation. In addition, lawyers in cases such as yours usually will charge only a contingency fee that comes only out of the proceeds of your claim, if any. If you do not know any lawyers, local bar associations usually provide a referral service. If you are in Allegheny County, Pennsylvania (where Bridgeville is located), the bar association links lawyer referral services. John M Baker (talk) 18:13, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Further, just to quietly explain our situation, we are not qualified to help, so we risk only doing harm. Of course this is kind of what John is saying, but I thought I would emphasise it. IBE (talk) 02:27, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Syria vs USA

How do civilian deaths by gunshot per annum compare in these two countries? Kittybrewster ☎ 13:46, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

I can't find specific statistics on deaths by gunshot, but according to our article on casualties of the Syrian civil war the death rate due to the conflict is currently running at about 1,000 per week (not surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be a very clear distinction between civilians and combatants on the rebel side). In a country with a population of 23 million, that translates to a rate of about 200 per 100,000 population per annum. This is about 40 times the homicide rate for the USA as a whole (4.7 per 100,000 per annum according to Crime in the United States) or about 10 times the homicide rate in a major city such as Washington, D.C.. Gandalf61 (talk) 14:17, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. So the answer to my question is 52,000 pa as compared with 0.000047 x 316,110,000 = 14,857 pa? ie 3.5 : 1. I doubt the victims in either country are enthusiastic volunteers. Kittybrewster ☎ 16:08, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

According to List of countries by firearm-related death rate, the overall US rate including things such as suicide and accidents is 10.3 per 10,000 as of 2011. There isn't data for Syria on that page. 209.131.76.183 (talk) 19:52, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. So the answer to my question is 52,000 pa (population 22.53m) as compared with 0.000103 x 316,110,000 = 32,559 pa? ie 1.6 : 1. Kittybrewster ☎ 20:28, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

If you want to completely overlook the differing population sizes, yes. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:32, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Economics textbook for high school

Next academic year, I'll teach economics in English to French 10th graders in a french high school. Do someone have any suggestion of economics textbooks that would be relevant ? The curriculum is micro oriented. But it should be (obviously) quite basic, as the students will have to cope both with this new subject and the language. Any suggestion of other kind of teaching materials is of course welcomed ! Thanks ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.13.10.56 (talk) 14:06, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Why are Christian hymns so slow, classical, and melodic?

It seems to me that Christian hymns are typically very slow, classical, and melodic with a dash of archaic language like thee, thy, and thine. Is this on purpose or by convention? Sneazy (talk) 23:17, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

1) It's not always true - have a listen to 'Personent Hodie', or several other early carols, and you'll hear brisk, dancy music.

2) The choice of language started out being how people spoke anyway, but it became the convention to use 'traditional language' (thee and thou), especially in addressing God, in the 17th century. At that time, modern English more or less as we know it was starting to be spoken, but the originally-intimate familiar forms were still used in things like the King James Bible and the Book of Common Prayer. Hymn writers (including me) still use those forms sometimes when we want to produce a similar effect, or if we're alluding to a well-known Bible quotation in its traditional-language form.

3) 'Classical' is a relative term. The hymn tunes of J S Bach and Philipp Nicolai are Baroque - that is, pre-classical. And many well-known hymn tunes are post-classical, 19th- or early 20th-century, which owe their apparent formality to a form of nostalgia for perceived medieval or Reformation simplicity. (As noted in (1), this was not necessarily a realistic view of the earlier age.)

4) But equally, a lot of what we regard as 'classical' music is church music, and so it's not that the hymns sound classical - classical music sounds hymnodic. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:31, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

How may a person sing in the church choir? Sneazy (talk) 01:02, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

These are the kind of things that vary greatly from one denomination the the next, and even from one church to the next. The OP may have heard some hymns used in a particular denomination or church, but it's impossible to guess which one with such a vaguely worded question. (Christians in India? Armenia? Ecuador? or perchance were you talking about some church you heard in the United States?) Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 23:38, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

By the way, we have an article on "Personent Hodie" -- The Anome (talk) 06:02, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Think the OP maybe asking: why the Devil has all the best tunes!--Aspro (talk) 23:50, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

That question surely wouldn't belong here, because that is 100% a matter of someone's opinion or way of looking at it, that many people likely wouldn't share. This is reference desk, for facts, right? You may as well ask "why do the Bee Gees have all the best tunes?", but a firum or soapbox would be the proper place for that kind of question. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 00:05, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

See Only Visiting This Planet. Rmhermen (talk) 03:29, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Every church will have its own rules about joining its choir. I've known those that were more interested in one's musical skills and voice quality (and availability to practice) than in one's interest in the church itself. I've belonged to church choirs (back in the neolithic era) where several of the singers belonged to entirely different churches and others were professed agnostics. (They had exceptional voices and were more interested in being able to sing than in what was being preached.) For some you need to participate in a competitive audition, others have paid singers, and some will take anyone who wants the role. Bielle (talk) 01:30, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• The OP may be interested in Contemporary worship music, a.k.a. "Praise and worship" or "Praise team" music (disclosure: I play guitar in a Praise and Worship team for my church). --Jayron32 03:35, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I once directed the "choir" at my Roman Catholic Church. It was more of a band with a bunch of backup singers. Most of our music was from the 70s and 80s, with a few contemporary songs tossed in. Whenever we did do older stuff, I made it my mission to liven it up as much as possible. Even the very traditional parts of Mass (the chanted prayers and amens and whatnot) were kicked up with a full rock band setup. The point of all this is to say that the songs were not slow or classical, though they were still melodic. Mingmingla (talk) 17:27, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• It's kind of the other way around, isn't it? The history of classical (as opposed to folk) music in the west was, from the gregorian chant of the middle ages to the masses and hymns of Bach through Beethoven up to Rossini's Stabat Mater the history of church music. It's not ike gregorian was popular at the gay bars first and then the church adopted it. The church itself was the impetus for its creation. There was great suspicion of elaboration (even basic harmony) as a temptation of the devil especially in the early period. Lively music seems to have been either folk music or to have been found in works like operas that were either commercially or royally sponsored, not by the church. I am sure Jack will have something much more helpful and cogent to say than this. μηδείς (talk) 18:11, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree with what you say, but cannot usefully add much more, except maybe to link Church music. As an example of the iron control the Church exercised over the music to be played, read about the Miserere by Gregorio Allegri. This is an extreme example, but I like extreme examples. The Miserere was allowed to be performed only in the Sistine Chapel, and only during matins, as part of the Tenebrae service on Holy Wednesday and Good Friday. Under pain of excommunication (!), it was forbidden to transcribe the music or perform it in other than the above very limited circumstances. Very famously, in 1770 the 14-year old Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, who was visting Rome, transcribed it after hearing it exactly once. He then heard it a second time and made some minor corrections to his MS. He made it known to Charles Burney, who published it in England. That led to the ban being lifted, and Mozart was praised by the Pope and showered with gifts for his genius. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 22:16, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I cannot believe I did not link to church music! As a thank you, let me ask you what you are supposed to call what lay people call classical music, when experts would say they were talking about the baroque period up to impressionism, and not just Mozart, Haydn, and Beethoven? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 02:04, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

It's a can of worms, but take a look at Classical music#History and its qualifications. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 05:55, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Also note that there's a difference between hymns, which are intended for congregational participation and therefore need to have an easy melody, and liturgical music such as anthems and motets that are intended for choral singing. Alansplodge (talk) 14:49, 26 June 2013 (UTC)