Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 June 14

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June 14

Three-legged stool trick

In Transfer of sovereignty of Hong Kong, the PRC repeatedly accused Britain of "making a three-legged stool" or playing the three-legged stool trick. What exactly is the three-legged stool trick? --50.125.164.39 (talk) 08:07, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

The negotiations were supposed to be between the British and Chinese governments. First the Governor, and then the Legislative Council, wanted to be part of the talks to speak for Hong Kong's citizens. The Chinese saw this as a British attempt to unfairly sway the proceedings. Rojomoke (talk) 10:07, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Recent Hereditary peerages

Do we have somewhere a list of hereditary peers created by Elizabeth II? I know of Snowdon, but I think there are at least 5 more, according to our article Hereditary peers. Does Duke of York, Duke of Cambridge and Earl of Wessex count, given that they were already royals? --Lgriot (talk) 10:54, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, they most certainly count. Surtsicna (talk) 11:08, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Not sure if there's a list but hereditary peerages were regularly created up until 1965 when the government switched to life peerages only. The only peerages created since then are:

Viscount Whitelaw 1983 - conferred on a man with no sons so de facto a life peerage

Viscount Tonypandy 1983 - ditto

Earl of Stockton & Viscount Macmillan of Ovenden - conferred on the former Prime Minister Harold Macmillan who would have had an Earldom twenty years earlier if he'd wished

Duke of York, Earl of Inverness & Baron Killyleagh 1986 - Royal Dukedom

Earl of Wessex & Viscount Severn 1999 - Royal Earldom for a junior prince

Duke of Cambridge, Earl of Strathearn & Baron Carrickfergus 2011 - Royal Dukedom

The lesser titles are all inherited the same way as the Dukedoms & Earldoms. Up until 1999 Royals with peerages did sit in the Lords and some did exercise this although in modern times I think it tended to be the Queen's cousins rather than sons and they usually restricted themselves to subjects related to their charities and technical expertise.

All the peerages created for Royals can in theory be inherited for as long as the male line lives, long after the holder has any Prince/HRH title or living direct memory of such an ancestor. York has no sons and Cambridge is second heir apparant to the throne so that's unlikely to happen, but if the Earl of Wessex's son spawns a dynasty then that title could go on for centuries. Timrollpickering (talk) 11:16, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

The 4 non-royal peerages created since 1964 are listed at Peerage of the United Kingdom. You had them all except Lord Margadale, Timrollpickering. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 11:37, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Margadale was a 1965 creation which is more usually the cutoff date than 1964 as there were a few leftovers from the dissolution & resignation honours. Timrollpickering (talk) 11:40, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Fair enuf. As for the list of all peerages created by Elizabeth II, it can be derived fairly easily by looking at:

• List of earls#Earls in the Peerage of the United Kingdom from 1952 onwards
• List of viscounts in the peerages of Britain and Ireland#Viscounts of the United Kingdom from 1952 onwards
• List of hereditary baronies in the Peerage of the United Kingdom#Elizabeth II (1952–present)
• Note. The last new marquessate was created in 1926, and the last new non-royal dukedom was created in 1874. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 11:55, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Jack. So I count 94 Barons, 22 Viscounts (there were 4 viscount creations in 1952, I count them all as QEII creation, but actually I am not sure if any were created by her father in Jan), 7 Earls and 2 Dukes. That is a total of 125 titles, but there are several peers that have more then one title, so I would have to do more work to figure out the actually # of hereditary peers. I must not be too far from 115 or 120, though. --Lgriot (talk) 15:05, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Resolved

Not counting the non-peerage but hereditary titles like Baronet Thatcher, of course. Rmhermen (talk) 16:57, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Very good point, Rmhermen, so baronets are not peers, but how do we know which barons are peers, and which are not? Are they all peers? --Lgriot (talk) 11:49, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

forget it, baronet ansswer that question. --Lgriot (talk) 11:52, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

All barons are peers, but life peers, who are all barons, are not hereditary. AlexTiefling (talk) 15:58, 17 June 2013 (UTC)