Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2011 February 26

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February 26

Poland

Is Poland in Eastern Europe or Central Europe? --75.15.161.185 (talk) 02:44, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

• See our articles on Central Europe and Eastern Europe. What is "central" or "eastern" in Europe has always been a somewhat slippery concept. But the short answer is: both. --M@rēino 03:40, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

• • To explain a little more in detail about the "slipperiness", the question is somewhat politically colored (something I would have never learned had I not gotten to witness the rather rediculous levels of nationalistic conflicts at Wikipedia articles first hand) in the sense that "Eastern Europe" has become a euphemism for "Russia". As I said, I wouldn't have used to have known that before coming to Wikipedia, but it seems that over the past several decades, as countries have tried to distance themselves from Russia politically they have started to wish to stop being considered part of "Eastern Europe". Until about 1990, "Eastern Europe" meant everything east of the Iron Curtain, so Poland was squarly in Eastern Europe. Since the democratization of many former Soviet satelites, the concept of "Central Europe", including countries like Poland the former Czechoslovakia, has been applied to them more and more, as they attempt to distance themselves from the old idea of what Eastern Europe was. --Jayron32 03:52, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

The way I perceive it, it's not so much objecting to be associated with Russia but objecting to being pigeonholed into a nasty stereotype of "dirt poor country with ugly gray buildings where the streets are rough and donkeys are still an acceptable means of transportation, with men who are only good for plumbers and women who are pretty and easy" - in my experience, some people have the amazing ability to mean all of this, almost verbatim, when they say "Eastern Europe". But then, my vantage point is different than that of the Polish, so that's probably the reason for this difference in perception. TomorrowTime (talk) 15:38, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

East Europe has often been used as a synonym for the East Bloc. So in some sense, you could say that the area that is now Poland was in Central Europe until 1945, in East Europe from 1945 to 1990, and then in Central Europe again after that. The term "central Europe" was not much used during the Cold War, I think. Jørgen (talk) 13:43, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Depending on whom you ask in Europe, you get different answers. From a Portuguese position, Poland is quite East, so Easter Europe. From the Baltic, however, they are quite center, so Central Europe. Germans, for example, want to take some distance from Poles, so they consider themselves Western Europe, and Poland East, avoiding putting them into the same category (Central East Europe). Quest09 (talk) 18:52, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

These categories are essentially political. Finland is located to the east of several eastern European countries, but is nevertheless a West European state. Prior to the Cold War there was a concept of Mitteleuropa ('Middle Europe'), which identified a largely German sphere of interest (Germany, Austria, Hungary, etc.). The ethnic composition was quite different then, what is today Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, etc. had large German- and Yiddish-speaking populations. The demographic shifts during and following WWII meant that more ethnically homogeneous nation states were formed. The border of Slavic predominance was moved westwards, and thus large parts of Europe were now "east". After 1991 there has been a concerted and politically motivated effort to revive the "Central Europe" concept. The success of the effort is so and so. People in Western Europe still largely refer to the former Eastern Bloc countries as "Eastern Europe", whilst people living in these countries are more keen on using the "Central Europe" name. --Soman (talk) 19:20, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Central Europe has always been defined more by ideas than by geography. Historically, various definitions prevailed in different times. I would list the following main ways of defining Central Europe:

• Bulwark of Christendom is the point of view in which Central European countries are the easternmost outposts of Western (Latin) Christianity, sheltering the western world from Eastern Orthodox Christians, pagan Tatars, muslim Ottoman Turks and atheist Bolsheviks.
• Cultural gradient concept maintains that as you move eastward from highly populated and highly developed Western Europe, you gradually move into countries that are less developed and more backward – economically, politically, culturally. From this point of view, Central Europe is a region that is considered – and often considers itself – as more civilized than barbaric and despotic Russia, but retarded towards Western Europe and looking to it as a source of ideas and guidance. This may explain why Central Europeans so much resent being labeled as East European. When and why they began to lag behind the West has been long debated, but it seems that the process started already in the Early Modern era when Central European economies lacked access to overseas colonies and relied too heavily on grain exports, strengthening the land-owning gentry and artistocracy who stifled the growth of an urban middle class and forced the peasantry into so-called second serfdom.
• German imperialist concept, as laid out in Friedrich Naumann's Mitteleuropa in 1915, focused on the German-speaking Central Powers of Germany and Austria-Hungary, with the former as a natural leader of a region separating a civilized West from Russia, and with non-Germanic peoples living on its peripheries. This concept appeared during World War I, then was revived by and pretty much died with the Nazis.
• Danubian concept was similar, but focused more on the multiethnic Austria-Hungary where the Habsburgs created a relatively benign and benevolent alternative to the autocratic Germany and Russia. Imperial and Royal nostalgia coupled with the smallness and neutrality of post-World War II Austria also allows it to be seen a Central European country by those who think of Central Europe as a group of small peace-loving nations, specifically excluding Germany. This concept also allows western Ukraine, Romanian Transylvania and parts of northern Italy to count as part of Central Europe because they once belonged to the Habsburg family.
• Interwar Middle Europe consisted of nations that regained independence in the aftermath of World War I; countries that were usually little more than pawns in the hands of Great Powers and provided a buffer zone between the defeated and truncated Germany in the west and the new Soviet Union in the east. They were all brutally occupied by one or both of them during World War II. What these countries had in common is that they lacked political independence throughout the 19th century, a period crucial for the development of nationalisms and national identities; as a result these peoples link the notion of nationality more with ethnicity than with the state.
• Cold War era concept tried to challenge the dichotomous division of Europe into a democratic, market-oriented West and communist East; as Czesław Miłosz wrote, Central Europe at that time seemed "to exist only in the minds of some of its [dissident] intellectuals", such as himself, György Konrád, Václav Havel, Adam Michnik, and Milan Kundera who defined Central Europe as "a piece of the Latin West which has fallen under Russian domination [and] which lies geographically in the center, culturally in the West and politically in the East."
• Modern concept, which can be seen, for instance, in Joe Biden's Bucharest speech, where Central Europe consists of those formerly communist countries which over the last two decades have made sustainable progress towards democracy and market economy, and have joined the EU and NATO – as opposed to East European countries which have not on the one hand, and to what Donald Rumsfeld has called "old Europe" on the other.

Oscar Halecki decided that one Central Europe is not enough and defined two: West Central Europe (German-speaking) and East Central Europe (roughly between Germany and Russia). Some people who talk about Central Europe today may have only the former in mind, others – the latter, others still – all or parts of both. As Jacques Rupnik said, "tell me where Central Europe is, and I can tell who you are." (The above is partly my OR, partly based on books by Lonnie Johnson, Norman Davies and others.) — Kpalion^(talk) 23:33, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

OMG

Resolved

What does OMG mean in this context? STANSFELD, Capt. Logan Sutherland, O.M.G., of Flockton Manor, Yorkshire. Kittybrewster ☎ 09:58, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

"Oh My God"!!! Sorry Kitty, I just couldn't resist this. Honestly, I did a Google and came up zero.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:10, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Spelling mistake? CMG? Kittybrewster ☎ 10:14, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Eureka! Order of St Michael and St George, an order of chivalry founded in the 19th century. The initials are CMG.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:17, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, a spelling mistake, Kitty. The closest correct postnominal would be CMG (easy to misread as OMG, I guess).

Actually, the first thing that occurred to me was Order of Malta and Gozo, but there's no such thing, only an Order of Malta. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 10:23, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

No, it's definitely Order of St Michael and St George as that was the first thing that came up when I did a Google with CMG.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:31, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Confirmation - Captain Logan Sutherland Stansfeld, RN, was appointed CMG on 3 June 1916: Supplement to the London Gazette, 3 June 1916, p.5561.

W. M. mason

Resolved

In the context of Freemasonry, what is a W. M. (specific context)? SpinningSpark 11:26, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Worshipful Master.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:34, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Ta, SpinningSpark 19:55, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

You're welcome. Northern Ireland's Royal Black Preceptory also has Worshipful Masters as can be seen here: Markethill Royal Black Preceptory--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:06, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Front bench changes after Irish general elections?

Do smaller Irish political parties usually change their front bench in the aftermath of general elections to distribute portfolios towards the successful candidates? For instance, will the Fianna Fail front bench likely be overhauled to exclude representatives who lost their seats? If only one Green Party T.D. is elected, would they be expected to become leader? And so on, thanks. 83.70.253.29 (talk) 14:57, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

You can't have a seat on the front bench if you don't have a seat at all, so yes, they'll have to form a new front bench made up of those that survived the election. --Tango (talk) 15:52, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Well my terminology might be a bit off, but I had in mind the shadow spokespeople, who don't necessarily need to be T.D.s it seems if Marc MacSharry is any indication. 83.70.253.29 (talk) 16:20, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, my knowledge is of Westminster, rather than Irish politics, but over here the shadow cabinet is always made up of current MPs and Lords. Roles like party chairman often go to people that aren't sitting in parliament, but you can't really be spokesperson for a policy area if you can't stand up and speak about that policy area when it is being debated. MacSharry is a member of the upper house, so while not a T.D. is still a sitting member of the Oireachtas. --Tango (talk) 01:57, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

2011 Libyan uprising

Reading this article, I am really surprised to see the death toll of pro-Gaddafi forces. How 5000 soldiers can be injured? I'm really curious about their fighting method. If it is urban warfare, death toll is very much possible, but they have advanced weaponry including aircraft. So why they are not using aircraft or tanks to quell the uprising? Do they posses missile? Just curious. --Goartoa (talk) 16:51, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

That "5000+ injured" figure is overall, not just for "pro-Gaddafi forces" (and in any case does not seem to be supported by the sources cited for it).

I don't think it is very clear yet to anyone what the exact extent of casualties is, but see the Casualties section of the article for other estimates.

My impression is that the "fighting method" on all sides is fairly chaotic right now, with some military personnel now with the opposition and some not, bands of foriegn mercenaries with machetes running around, Air Force pilots defecting to Malta with their aircraft rather than carry out orders to attack protesters, etc. Our article will be updated as things become clearer and more reliable sources start publishing more reliable casualty figures. WikiDao ☯ 17:57, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

German speaking Metallica-like bands?

Does anyone know any German speaking bands whose style is influenced by Metallica? --Belchman (talk) 17:28, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

The only one I know of is Rammstein. --TammyMoet (talk) 18:38, 26 February 2011 (UTC) Just looked at their entry here, and Metallica isn't listed as one of their influences. However, my nephew is into both of these groups, and they sound pretty similar to me! You might find some of the links on their page useful too. --TammyMoet (talk) 18:41, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, we do have an article on German heavy metal (which, to be frank is a redirect to "teutonic heavy metal"), but I don't think any of those bands performed in German (at least as far as I checked through the links). I think German is just not "cool enough" for metal bands, heavy metal umlaut notwithstanding. That said if you are willing to expand a bit, there is some industrial music out there that is sung in German. There's the already mentioned Rammstein, there is Laibach, then there is electropunk stuff like DAF (IMO a brilliant but sadly overlooked band) and so on - but then, these might not be your cup of tea. TomorrowTime (talk) 15:55, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

It may not be similar to Metallica, but In Extremo is a heavy metal band who sings in german. Check Vollmond MBelgrano (talk) 16:40, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

"permission to speak freely"

surprised there's no article, but in the Military is there really such a thing as "permission to speak freely"? (as in movies) Can you tell me more about this? 109.128.182.182 (talk) 20:01, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

In many situations, a soldier would need permission from an officer to do a wide range of things not normally required of him/her. If they want permission to speak freely, that's what they'd have to ask for. If it's permission to kiss the officer, that's what they'd have to ask for. There's potentially no limit to what they could ask for, and I can't see that any particular request would make a suitable enyclopedia topic. I guess "permission to speak freely" occurs in movies a bit because soldiers are normally required to shut up and do what they're told, and only speak in order to answer a direct question. If the dramatic imperatives of the story require a character to expand on a direct court-room type answer, to give the bigger picture of some issue, then they'd have to be seen to ask permission first, so as not to violate military protocol. I'm sure there are many examples in films where there is little or no accuracy when depicting protocol, and much that's just made up for dramatic effect, but this is one thing that's easy for the filmmakers to do and it would reflect reality, more or less, depending on what their military technical advisers tell them. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 00:55, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks but I find your answer rather obscure. In the real military, do people really say that or don't they? 109.128.182.182 (talk) 02:13, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

One would presume that some of them do so because they've seen it in the movies, and many officers don't object to such a question because they, too, have seen it in the movies. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 14:20, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Obscure? Just reread my first 2 sentences. An officer can theoretically give permission for anything he's asked, and permission to speak freely would be one of countless things a soldier could conceivably ask for. You yourself seem to be in a confused state: you seem to doubt there's any such thing as asking permission to speak freely, but still say you're surprised there's no article on it. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 19:24, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Depends on the culture of the military concerned.

ALR (talk) 17:16, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Middle East

Is Iran in the Middle East? What about the -stans? --75.15.161.185 (talk) 21:27, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

  Traditional definition of the Middle East

  Greater Middle East

  Central Asia (sometimes associated with the Greater Middle East)

The Middle East is a region within Asia. "The -stans" are typically considered part of Asia, but not of the Middle East. Schyler! (one language) 22:04, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

The middle east is usually as much a cultural designation as a geographic one - it generally refers to areas populated by semitic peoples (jews, arabs, and persians, mostly). The 'stans tend to have slavic or turkic populations, and farther east you get indic peoples. --Ludwigs2 22:27, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

The term "Semitic peoples" is really almost completely and utterly meaningless when referring to modern populations (as opposed to tribesmen of 1000 B.C.). There are peoples who speak a Semitic language (this includes Arabs and some Jews, but NOT Persians). However, I'm not sure that speaking a Semitic language has much to do with the definition of the middle east -- Ethiopia is usually not included, despite all the Semitic language-speakers there, while Turkey and Iran often are included. AnonMoos (talk) 23:31, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Iran is included in the "Traditional definition of the Middle East" and the "-stans" are included in the concept (from a Western perspective) of a "Greater Middle East" (see map). WikiDao ☯ 00:06, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

I thought that the Middle East meant the Arab countries and Israel. --75.15.161.185 (talk) 00:29, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Morocco is Arab, but not Middle East. Quest09 (talk) 01:11, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

As the Middle East article states, the term "Middle East" originally referred to the region including Iran and Afghanistan. The Arab countries and Turkey were called the "Near East." For some reason, the term "Middle East" migrated to cover what used to be called the Near East, leaving Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan kind of in a void between the Middle East and Central and South Asia. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:20, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

There's a cool Euler diagram at Terminology of the British Isles. Someone of skill should do a similar one showing the interrelationships between Middle East countries, Arab countries and Muslim countries. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 19:15, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Would have been cooler still if it hadn't made the Isle of Man look like it was near Holland. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 02:30, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

And there was me thinking Israel and the rest of the Levantine coast were still part of the Near East. I miss that place, it seems to have disappeared somewhere. 148.197.121.205 (talk) 09:28, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

See also MENA. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:32, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Pistol Packing Mama

Can someone tell me something about the tune and song of this name. I have taken two mp3s from web one by Bing Crosby etc, and others by Big Jack Johnson and Al Dexter. But none of these matches the tune I am looking for. The exact tune I am looking for is sung by Raghubir Yadav while he plays a drug addicted urchin in Salaam Bombay film.  Jon Ascton  (talk) 21:53, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Can you provide a link so we can hear it? Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:22, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

I believe this song was made famous in the UK by Sophie Tucker, or possibly Tessie O'Shea. It was also used to advertise Rowntree's Fruit Pastilles about 40 years ago! --TammyMoet (talk) 09:45, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Another possibility is that he is singing a version so distorted that you don't recognize it as the same tune as that of Al Dexter et al. I couldn't view the scene or listen to the song anywhere online, and I watched the film when it came out, over 20 years ago.

I did find "When Chillum [the character played by Yadav] sings his slow, haunting, completely anti-percussive version of "Pistol-Packing Mama," we know it could happen nowhere else but in Bombay." by Arjun Appadurai (Department of Anthropology, University of Pennsylvania), which lends some support to my wild theory. (From "Marriage, Migration and Money: Mira Nair's Cinema of Displacement" in Gilmore, David D. , Musello, Chris , Sciorra, Joseph , MacClancy, Jeremy , Loizos, Peter , Fernea, Elizabeth A. , Fernea, Robert A. , Fuks, Victor , Chalfen, Richard , Appadurai, Arjun and Breckenridge, Carol A.(1991) Film reviews', Visual Anthropology, 4: 1, 69 — 102, p100). Here is their link from where you can download the entire text for free ---Sluzzelin talk 11:32, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Another quote reveals that it probably is the same "tune", or the same lyrics anyway: "[...] Chillum, out of whose wasted, very eloquent body surprisingly emanate the lyrics, 'pistol packin' Mama, lay your pistol down'; [...]" (Genre, Gender, Race, and World Cinema, Julie F. Codell, Wiley-Blackwell, 2007, p 182, ISBN 9781405132336). The original lyrics are "lay that pistol down", but I think that's close enough. ---Sluzzelin talk 11:46, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

(Adding to satisfy my love of links, not that it really answers your question, but) we have an article on "Pistol Packin' Mama". ---Sluzzelin talk 11:58, 27 February 2011 (UTC)