Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2009 October 12

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October 12

Violent crime in Saudi Arabia

Is there any case of violent crime in Saudi Arabia (rape, murder, etc.). It seems to be that Shari'a law works. --Maru-Spanish (talk) 04:41, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

No, never. And not the least whisper of dissent either. There's just nothing to complain about under shari'a.--Wetman (talk) 05:03, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Well it really depends on your definition or "works". But if you're attempting to advocate Shari'a law here then I think you are in the wrong place. It's also one of the most barbaric and totalitarian systems in the world. The law allows murderous retribution, stoning and beheading as a sentence for offences other then murder (like apostasy from Islam!) flogging for neglecting prayer duties and also the amputation of limbs for theft, including that of foreigners. I'm sure that's not the lot of it. Vespine (talk) 05:14, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

And before someone acuses me of bigotry, i did mean that the Reference desk is the wrong place to advocate ANY kind of law. So to answer the OP directly on good faith. YES there are cases of violent crime in Saudi Arabia, we even have an article about it Crime in Saudi Arabia, we also have a List of countries by intentional homicide rate which shows Saudi Arabia towards the bottom of the list so yes their cases of violent crime are low, but with many notable non Shari'a law countries lower, including Japan, Austria, Norway. Vespine (talk) 05:24, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I am not defending the Shari'a law.... Vespine, I asked if there is any known case of violent crime in Saudi Arabia because I want to know about it... I'd never defend the Shari'a law because the Shari'a law is against the kind of person I am... --Maru-Spanish (talk) 05:32, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

According to this source, whose reliability I can't assess, there is indeed violent crime in Saudi Arabia, including rape and murder. If the rate of such crime is lower than in other countries, this is not necessarily because of the deterrent effect of Shari'a. Many other factors go into crime rates, including what the Romans called mores, or cultural and subcultural attitudes toward individual violence, the strength of family relationships that could, on the one hand, shame a potential criminal into not committing the crime, or, on the other, provide the potential criminal with enough material support that he is not driven to commit crimes to meet his material needs, and he is deterred from committing crime because he has something to lose in the form of family material support. Also, the Saudi custom of segregating women, while it impedes women's freedom and human rights, may have the side benefit that few women find themselves alone in places where they are likely to be raped. Another consideration is that Saudi Arabia's patriarchal culture may make it unlikely that women would report rapes they suffer from male family members. Marco polo (talk) 14:00, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

The statistics of tyrants are valueless. It's entirely impossible to make meaningful comparisons between the crime rates of democratic countries and those of undemocratic ones. Democracy is much more than just voting; it's a proper system of checks, recourse, and review over how the state works. In a democratic country, if the police or prosecutors don't apply a law fairly and pursue wrongdoers with due application, aggrieved victims can take steps to have them censured or their hand forced (whether that's executive agencies like the UK's Police Complaints Authority or judicial ones like the courts); whistleblowers are protected, opposition politicians can hold inquiries, pressure groups can protest, and individual citizens can raise a fuss. If the British Prime Minister can't get away with charging a somewhat above average cleaning bill to the government, you can be sure he's not lettings his friends get away with murder or creaming millions out of the bank of England for his mum. This doesn't happen in undemocratic countries; whole swathes of the population are above the law entirely (those with connections to the rulers), bribery and corruption are commonplace, and the intimidation and perversion of judges, juries (if they exist), prosecutors, witnesses, and complainants can happen unchecked. Moreover, the governments of undemocratic countries are desperate to make everything appear to be working well (because they're paranoid that they'll be regarded as corrupt and incompetent, and violently overthrown), so they're highly motivated to fiddle the figures to make everything look hunky dory. All of these actions are risky and usually criminal in democratic countries, but in undemocratic countries fiddling juries and fudging government statistics is easy (for the wealthy, the powerful, and the connected). So undemocratic countries report magically tiny crime rates. They also report low rates of infectious disease, food contamination, building-standards violations (hello Chinese school builders), political or religious dissent (99% of the population love the president), corruption (Al Yamamah), and general unhappiness. You can mostly trust the statistics of a democracy not because those in government are intrinsically more honest (although often they are too), but because there are layers of bureaucrats, lawyers, activists, opposition politicans, and concerned citizens who won't let the government away with anything. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 19:13, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Tangentially to the original Question but pertinent to the ensuing discussion remember that, just as Islam takes widely varying, locally ethnically influenced forms worldwide, Shari'a law is not a single worldwide unified code of laws and punishments. Some jurisdictions in "the West" still apply the Death Penalty, but it would not be accurate to say that this is characteristic of contemporary Western legal systems in general. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 19:23, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree completely with Finlay McWalter's comments and did not mean to suggest uncritical acceptance of Saudi crime statistics. (As I said, I can't assess their reliability.) For the reasons Finlay mentions, the statistics are not reliable, though this U.S. government source suggests that levels of crime are lower than in most parts of the United States. Marco polo (talk) 20:35, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

That depends if you consider beheading by saber a violent crime. Oh, but the judge said he was guilty... Vranak (talk) 22:47, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

A legal execution can not in any way be considered a crime, violent or otherwise, as a crime is by definition an illegal act. Googlemeister (talk) 15:43, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

It cannot? How about 'gross violation of decency'?

Seriously, would you cut a man's head off for any reason whatsoever? Then why would it be OK (legal) for someone else to do it? Vranak (talk) 16:13, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Because if a legitimately recognized government (Which Saudi Arabia is for most, if not all nations) creates a law which says that anyone who spits on the sidewalk (as an extreme example) is to be executed by removal of their head with a sword, then your feelings are irrelevant. No crime is committed when a the government carries out the sentence, because THAT IS THE LAW. I do not condone many of the laws there, but if the execution is done according to their laws, it is certainly NOT a crime. It is a concept called sovereignty that allows nations to have their own laws. Googlemeister (talk) 18:17, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Difference between Marginal Utility and Marginal Benefit

What's the difference between marginal utility and marginal benefit?--Elatanatari (talk) 05:04, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Marginal benefit redirects to Marginal utility but is not mentioned in that article. From this, I deduce either an embarrassing error or that marginal benefit and marginal utility are two names for the same thing. I suspect the latter. Bielle (talk) 05:14, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Marginal benefit is the same as marginal utility in economics terms. I'd avoid the term marginal benefit in economics as it has a common usage meaning the benefit of something is probably small if it exists at all. Marginal utility is much less commonly used for anything except the economics meaning. 18:30, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I see someone saying they're different in [1] saying "The marginal benefit of a good is the dollar value a person places on the marginal utility enjoyed from that good" Another one says benefit can be measured in terms of utility. so you takes your choices, hair splitting I think. Dmcq (talk) 18:37, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

The usage of marginal utility is clear – the increase in utility caused usually by consumption of a good or service. Marginal benefit is sometimes used as a synonym of marginal utility, but is also used to denote the increase in production, revenue or profits by a firm from an action (hiring an employee, selling a good etc.). LK (talk) 07:47, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

The Boleyn Ground

WEST HAM UNITED'S GROUND NAME:

Please advise me how West Ham's Ground came to be called The Boleyn Ground? Is there any connection with Ann Boleyn?

Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.31.38.47 (talk) 10:00, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Have you read our article on the Boleyn Ground? The name is explained in the third sentence. Warofdreams talk 10:54, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Civilian Security Force in U.S.

President Obama spoke of establishing a Civilian Security Force or National Civilian Security Force during his presidential campaign. Will this be implemented now that he is president? --68.175.44.30 (talk) 14:29, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Judging by how hard it has been to get his healthcare reforms passed, it may be even harder to get any other big ticket items accomplished. But I'm no WP:CRYSTALBALL. Dismas|^(talk) 14:32, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

We don't do predictions here, but you can read about some of the proposals at Universal National Service Act. --Sean 15:18, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Milne: fear and boredom of war

Was the Lord Milne who said that war consisted of "short periods of intense fear and long periods of intense boredom" this Lord Milne? Ericoides (talk) 15:44, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

A brief on-line search finds that the quotation is generally attributed to J C Smuts, but quotations do have a tendency to attach themselves to famous people. I don't know of a definitive source for the quote myself. Tevildo (talk) 17:39, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I see; thanks for that. Alan Moorehead, in the second volume of his Desert War trilogy, A Year of Battle, writes of "the slowness that Lord Milne meant when he spoke of war as consisting of short periods of intense fear and long periods of intense boredom", and I searched online with the quote I cited above +Milne. No wonder I couldn't find it if it was Smuts's remark. But it wouldn't be the first time that (the generally wonderful) Moorehead was factually mistaken in these books... Ericoides (talk) 17:56, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

It's entirely possible that Field Marshal Lord Milne was heard to say it, or a variant thereof, on some occasion without this meaning that he himself coined it. It's a widespread meme in the worldwide Military, another version being "Warfare consists of long periods of boredom punctuated by moments of terror", as you can see by googling that phrase. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 19:10, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

It brings up one hit ... this one.

Ukrainians

Who were the Viatychians?

Prior to the middle of the 19th century, ethnic Ukrainians referred to themselves as Rusyns. ... The ethnonym Ukrainian came into widespread use only in modern times for political reasons, replacing the ethnonym Rusyn initially in Sloboda Ukraina, then on the banks of the Dnieper River, and spreading to western Ukraine in the 1930s.

— Rusyns#Location

I have not been able to find information as to these political reasons. What are they?174.3.117.120 (talk) 17:02, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

The Viatychians are more often called the Viatychi. They were a Slavic tribe on the northern or northeastern edges of the Kievan Rus who are thought to be among the probable ancestors of modern ethnic Russians.

As for the political reasons, our account in Name of Ukraine suggests that the ethnonym did not spread in a steady geographic procession as your quote suggests but instead as a result of shifts in identity politics across the region during the 1800s. According to our article, those who adopted the label Ukrainian did so to assert a distinct ethnic identity rather than a shared identity with other heirs of the Kievan Rus as Rusyns or with Russian-speaking "Great Russians" as "Little Russians" (Malorossi). I lack the expertise to judge whether your quote or our article has the more reliable account. However, our article seems reasonably well sourced and provides the "political reason" mentioned by your quote, even if it calls into question the supposed historical process described in your quote. Marco polo (talk) 17:41, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia's article is at Vyatichs.--Wetman (talk) 05:21, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

'Ovnt Lid' by Itzik Manger

Could anyone possibly direct me as to where I could find a transliterated Yiddish text, along with its translation, of Itzik Manger's poem 'Ovnt Lid' (Evensong)? I would be immensely grateful! Luthinya (talk) 17:49, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

There is a transliteration on this page (it is the first of two songs there). I haven't found an English translation. --Cam (talk) 03:35, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I will attempt a nonexpert, nonrhyming translation:

Evening Song

Quiet evening. Dark gold.

I sit by my glass of wine.

What has come of my day?

A shadow and a shine

At least a little dark gold should

Come into my song.

Quiet evening. Dark gold.

An old, gray Jew

Prays piously away from the dust

Of the yearly fair.

At least a murmur from the Jew should

Come to me in song

Quiet evening. Dark gold.

Wind, world-out world-in.

My sorrow which has been awake

Falls asleep like a little deer.

At least a breath of sleep should

Come to me in song.

Quiet evening. Dark gold.

A summer bird flies

With his wings of gray and gold

Away into "God protect"

At least a flutter from his flight should

Come to me in song.

Quiet evening. Dark gold.

I sit by my glass of wine.

What has come of my day?

A shadow and a shine

At least a little dark gold should

Come into my song.

Marco polo (talk) 13:56, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Beautiful. Worthy of a Mahler setting.--Wetman (talk) 20:37, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Julius Caesar (the play)

I have to do a crossword about Julius Caesar, and I can't figure out a few of the clues. What are the answers to them? I've provided the letters that I already know from other words.

• Reported Caesar's refusal of the crown: -A-C-
• What Antony enjoys: SP----
• Poetic form used by Shakespeare: ------E--E
• "_____ should be made of sterner stuff.": -M---I--

--75.39.193.116 (talk) 21:34, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Welcome to the Wikipedia Reference Desk. Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misevaluation, but it is our policy here to not do people's homework for them, but to merely aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn what the assignment was intended to teach. —Akrabbim^talk 21:39, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

At the top of the page, it says "If your question is homework, show that you have attempted an answer first, and we will try to help you past the stuck point." This is what I've done, since there are approximately 50 questions on the crossword and I'm only stuck on those four that I can't figure out. --75.39.193.116 (talk) 21:44, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

You can find the answer to your first unknown at Julius Caesar (play)#Characters and to the last two at William Shakespeare#Style and here, respectively. I'm not entirely sure about the second one. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 22:26, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

For the last question just copy the part quote you have into Google - add some quotation marks and press search. For the penultimate one, I think your teacher may have mis-spelt "pentameter"! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alansplodge (talk • contribs) 22:35, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

(EC)Minimal google-fu gets 3 out of four; arguably you lack ambition. But like Amorymeltzer, I'm stumped by question 2. A search for sp* through the text of JC wasn't very enlightening. I'd be grateful if, when you get the answers, you post 2. back here. It would help if there was an online concordance builder able to take a URL as an argument ... I've not found one in a quick search. Agree with the mis-spelling though I don't think we need give out the answer...--Tagishsimon (talk) 22:38, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

The answer to three is not pentameter. The link I gave has the answer, though, in a rather obvious manner. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 22:52, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

So the clue should be ----- -E--E? --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:05, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

"Pentameter" has more than one spelling, although the other answer makes sense too. Of course, the other words will tell which is correct. --Anonymous, 06:15 UTC, October 13, 2009.

Yes, it does, but perhaps your link is not quite on the money. From my experience, the -re spelling is very much in the minority, even here in Britain. - Jarry1250 ^{[ In the UK? Sign the petition! ]} 16:23, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Does Antony enjoy "speech"? A little odd, but he does it a lot... Adam Bishop (talk) 23:27, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

All I could come up with was that, spirit, or speaks, but none of them make any sense. Sadly, Cleopatra doesn't fit. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 23:39, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Maybe "sports", as Cleo was certainly a good sport. :) →Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 00:26, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I think you're thinking of what I am, Tagishimon, but you put an extra blank between the two Es. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 23:39, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I did - now corrected by removing a blank. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:47, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't like doing someone else's homework, either, so I hope this isn't for credit. Without looking at the play, my suspicion is that you might get some idea of Marc Antony's enjoyments from the scene where Caesar says, "Yon Cassius hath a lean and hungry look..." (Yes, many of us know the next line without looking, but no need to say more than needed.) —— Shakescene (talk) 05:51, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

For homework, legal advice, etc. try the Answerbank.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:50, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Why is this being treated like homework? I don't see any statements about this puzzle except that it's a crossword puzzle, and a crossword is much more likely to be for enjoyment than for schoolwork. Nyttend (talk) 05:55, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I just saw the "I have to do a crossword" as an indication that it was an assignment, and also the fact that many of the questions could be very easily solved with Google (the last quote is heavily quoted). That was just the impression that I got. —Akrabbim^talk 16:49, 17 October 2009