Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2008 October 14

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October 14

Building of the Parthenon

In the wikipedia article on the Parthenon, it says that the Old Parthenon was destroyed in 480 BC by the Persians, and that the Parthenon we know now was built in its place. However, the article says that the new Parthenon began being built in 490 BC, and was finished in 488 BC. Doesn't that mean that the New Parthenon was built before the Old Parthenon was destroyed? Or is it a mistake?72.65.101.51 (talk) 00:41, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I read it as saying that the Old Parthenon was begun circa 490-488 and (maybe) destroyed in 480. —Tamfang (talk) 00:51, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

To the right of the article, beneath the picture of the Parthenon at the top of the page, it says that the New Parthenon was built in 490-488 BC. Could this be just a numerical error by the author? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.65.101.51 (talk) 01:16, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I've changed the dates in the infobox. Deor (talk) 10:26, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Remedios Varo painting

Does anyone know who owns the Remedios Varo painting Bordando el manto terrestre (Embroidering the Earth's Mantle)? Is it currently on display anywhere? I believe it is part of a triptych, if that helps at all. Thanks. Zagalejo^^^ 01:26, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

According to this site[1], the painting was in a private collection as of 1997. Artprice has nothing on it even being offered for sale since then. ៛ Bielle (talk) 04:14, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, OK. Thanks for the reply! Zagalejo^^^ 05:59, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Hal Bevan Petman

Hello, I am looking for information on the British portrait artist Hal Bevan-Petman. I would welcome any input for my research. Some basic stuff is available on a website I started up recently but I require: Photos of the artist,and information on his wife Beryl. Of course, input on portraits around the world would be great! Please look up my website www.halbevanpetman. com —Preceding unsigned comment added by Romanokarim (talk • contribs) 01:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Looking for an image: Badge of the House of Windsor

Hi. I've seen the Badge referred to many times (apparently it uses the round tower at Windsor Castle as the main element), but I have not been able to find a visual of it online anywhere. Would anyone here know? [ roux ] [x] was prince of canada 05:38, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

You can see it here on one of a 1998 set of UK stamps showing the Queen's Beasts. The round tower badge of Windsor is on the shield borne by the Griffin of Edward III. Strawless (talk) 20:40, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

British finance rescue

The Briish government is reported to have borrowed £50 billion in order to rescue banks in current crisis.Who has lent them this money,and at what cost?Covkid87 (talk) 10:44, 14 October 2008 (UTC)--Covkid87 (talk) 10:44, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Governments usually finance themselves through government bonds with low interest rate (say 4%). Mr.K. (talk) 11:11, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

To expand on that, bonds works like a bank, but in the exact opposite way. A bank is a single lender with multiple customers; with bonds you have a single customer getting its loans from multiple peoples. The government essentially offers promissory notes to anyone who wants to buy them, with the promise that when they mature, they will repay the note plus interest. Private companies can raise cash this way as well. The relative risk of a bond is related to how indebted the issuing organization is relative to its value. For a company, the value of bonds should always be below its real value (this is a gross oversimplification); that is, the company should not owe more than it itself is "worth". If it does, the creditors own the company, and the company goes "bankrupt" (again, an oversimlification). The thing about government bonds is the government is essential worth the entire GDP of the nation. Thus, they are usually very secure investment vehicles because they are perfectly safe; No one expects the government to default on its bond obligations.--Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:05, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Mr K and Jayron32.I have just been trying to understand CDS's. How mindblowingly complicated!Covkid87 (talk) 11:27, 15 October 2008 (UTC)CovKid87

Small correction: no one expects the US government to default. Mr.K. (talk) 13:11, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I think that would apply to any member of the G7. No one seriously expects the U.K. to default on its bond obligations either. The same, of course, cannot be said for nations in the developing world. They can, and frequently do, go bankrupt. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 16:26, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, there are certainly more safe governments than just the US. There are some major economies that aren't particularly risk-free, though - Russia, for example. I doubt they've fully regained the trust they lost in 1998. I believe you can get a good idea of how trustworthy investors think countries are based on credit default swaps, although where you get those numbers, I don't know. There are credit ratings, too, of course, but those are at a lower resolution - there's no way to compare the countries that are all rated AAA, or whatever. --Tango (talk) 17:07, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

If you're interested in the credit ratings, see here, although bare in mind they may well have changed considerably in the last few weeks, so those could be out of date. --Tango (talk) 17:10, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Credit default swaps

Who was the first to issue them?

If they protected creditors against default, and they were traded at 60 trillion, how high are the credit contracts that they protected? 600 trillions? Mr.K. (talk) 15:42, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I think that $60 trillion figure is the size of the debt being protected (our article, credit default swap, talks about the total "notional amount" being of that magnitude, and I think in this context, that means the size of debt), the amount of money that actually changes hands because of these swaps will be far less (I've not idea how much it would be). --Tango (talk) 16:06, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, then, how high are the credit default swaps? Since it were traded over-the-counter, could it be that it's impossible to calculate how high they are? Mr.K. (talk) 16:13, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

You mean what's the market value of all the contracts? I have no idea. There will be estimates out there somewhere, but remember the market value changes constantly as people re-evaluate the credit risks. I'm not sure there's anywhere you can find a real-time total since, as you say, it's all done over-the-counter. --Tango (talk) 16:24, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

And why did people negotiated such huge amounts over-the-counter and not in an exchange? Mr.K. (talk) 16:39, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Because there is no exchange for CDSs. Like any financial instrument they started small and were just done on a case-by-case basis at first and no exchange was needed, they've now grown to the level where an exchange would be quite useful but it's not going to happen naturally. Creating an exchange requires someone to step up and do it - most likely as a result of new legislation introduced to tighten regulation of the finance sector to try and avoid another crisis like the one we have now. --Tango (talk) 17:02, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

World Population by Gender

Hello,
I would like to know what is the ratio of men to women on earth.
Couldn't find that information nowhere. The Good Samaritan (talk) 17:48, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

According to the CIA World Factbook, it's estimated at about 101 men for every 100 women. --Alinnisawest,^{Dalek Empress} (extermination requests here) 17:53, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

It varies with age, though - there are more men born than women, but women live longer. Young demographics are male-heavy, older demographics are female-heavy. --Tango (talk) 18:21, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

See also: Human sex ratio. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 00:25, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Economics

In general, most balance sheet entries are mathematically interdependent in some way. For instance, savings and interest on savings are related in that a certificate of deposit will usually have a better rate of interest the higher the deposit required, while income tax rates will match the amount of income. Where can I find a list of such mathematical relationships for all balance sheet entries? -- Taxa (talk) 19:53, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Can you clarify your question. For example, the *mathematical* relationship between savings and the interest rate has nothing to do with the size of the deposit. There is an *empirical* relationship, but that is not deterministic. The relationship between income tax rates and income is *statutory*. Wikiant (talk) 20:09, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Think of curves that relate x to y. Think of x as something like household transfer payments and y as something like household taxes. Then ask what relationship does x have to y and draw the curve. -- Taxa (talk) 20:58, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

While those kind of things may be correlated, there isn't going to be a simple mathematical relationship between them. --Tango (talk) 21:04, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Ranges and ratios are good enough. For instance, what is the ratio of imports to exports? Does it vary widely or is there a prescribed ratio? Same with taxes. While corporate tax has an absolute upper limit of 100 percent it has a practical upper limit of 36 percent based on the concept of the Laffer curve (video) that tax revenue would decrease. -- Taxa (talk) 06:28, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

They vary widely. Some countries have large trade deficits (ie. many more imports than exports, eg. the US), some countries have large trade surpluses (ie. many more exports than imports, eg. China) and other countries are at all points inbetween. You can come up with mathematical models to estimate these kind of things but if they're going to have widespread applicability there are going to be so many variables so as to make it impractical to use them without a super computer, and even then they won't be very accurate if something exceptional happens. --Tango (talk) 13:22, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

The number of topics over which your question ranges is huge. I suggest you go look at the Statistical Abstract of the United States. You won't find the ratios you seek (which I guarantee you don't all exist in a single document). You will find the raw data to calculate many of the things you've mentioned. Wikiant (talk) 12:15, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

WW2: European collaboration with Third Reich Germany/Austria

Which European country had the highest per capita collaboration rate with the Nazis in WW2? - for example, in the form of voluntary SS divisions/legions, participation in persecution of Jews, etc. I have read about Latvia, Lithuania and the Netherlands (were these the worst three?) but would appreciate solid information in the form of per capita statistics & country comparisons if possible/available. Thank you in advance, --AlexSuricata (talk) 23:15, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Your chosen indices of collaboration are problematic. Many instances of both helping and / or persecuting Jews have not made it into the historical record for a variety of reasons and one would also face the issue of different levels of national willingness to confront their past after the war. A count of SS or Heer voluntary legions can be misleading because there was a certain amount of mixing of nationalities in these units not to mention the tendency of the Germans to exaggerate the units' size (brigade-sized units called divisions, etc.). Finally, you may wish to think laterally on this issue and not automatically unite Austria with Germany. Seen in that sense, "Austria" may be the answer to your query. --W. B. Wilson (talk) 04:01, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

You could also consult on-line sources such as www.worldwar-2.net. This site lists the 1939 population and the casualties of selected nations are given, even when a nation fought for both the Axis and the Allies. This may give an idea of the per capita effort of these nations on behalf of the two warring groups. Of course, caution is always indicated when looking at casualty statistics as they always seem to be tabulated differently. As well, this source does not list Jugoslavija -- of which Croatia was originally a part and which was a reliable ally of the Germans. --W. B. Wilson (talk) 16:11, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

For Wiki articles, look at Resistance during World War II and Collaboration during World War II. --W. B. Wilson (talk) 17:20, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Of course, we may discuss if Austria -and other countries as well - have willingly collaborated. (Unsigned comment)

Should one count Italy? I think it is a bit unfair to the french, the dutch, austrains and all the others easily accused of collaboration, when Mussolini had long sold the italians out wholesale. I am not blaming all italians for Mussolini, but this resistenza reality/myth tends to hide some ugly facts of cozy Italian German relations until the war went bad.--Radh (talk) 22:00, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

The distinction (until Autumn 1943) is that Italy had not been occupied by Germany and so was an active ally of the Germans rather than an occupied nation that had collaborators. Post Autumn 1943 is a different story. A civil war took place in northern Italy. There was an active resistance, but there was also a large number of Italian military and paramilitary units under the control of Mussolini's Saló Republic or the Germans (most of whom were fighting the Partisans). --W. B. Wilson (talk) 03:56, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I have read that at the end of fighting in Berlin, the SS units defending Hitler were of foreign origin. The German SS could surrender and be POWs, but the foreign SS were fearful of being tried for treason, so they fought on. If you Google "Hitler’s Foreign Legion: Waffen SS" you find sites which have a breakdown of SS volunteers from 24 countries or regions, including a small British unit. Netherlands with 50,000 in the 23rd SS Div., 34th SS Div. get the nod for largest number. These sites seem to be blacklisted or spam filtered by Wikipedia for some reason. Edison (talk) 16:10, 15 October 2008 (UTC)