Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2024 May 9
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May 9
editThoroughbreds
editWhy did their races get shorter over time and why are turf (grass) tracks more important in Europe while in the US the grass track(s) are inside the main outer one made of soil or sometimes artificial substance (not fake grass)? The US Triple Crown races and flagship race of the Breeders Cup (the North American "horse Olympics") are on dirt so if it rains before and during the race the soil could become mud. And why are US races shorter than European (England has 5-6 furlong races too its flagship race (St Ledger Stakes, 14.6f) is longer than the Breeders Cup Marathon which was 12 furlongs then 14 then cancelled for race strength never reaching the other races. Our Triple Crown is 10, 9.5 and a "Double Crown" winner humbling 12 furlongs (cause our horses are bred for more fast-twitch muscles), while Brits have Group 1 races up to 20 furlongs while we don't have any grade 1, 2, or 3 races above 16 furlongs (there are almost 100 grade 1 races in North America – none over 12 furlongs). Also England's 21.65f Queen Alexandra Stakes was the longest pro flat race on Earth before being usurped by Australia's current longest (22.87 furlongs). Australia's most famous race is 15.91 furlongs.Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:36, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Because like many other activities and pursuits, sports that are developing on different continents in near-isolation from one another tend, because of local factors, chance events and different decisions, to diverge from one another in their development. Compare with American Football and Rugby Union, which in the 19th century were the same game, but which are now very different. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.175.176 (talk) 08:51, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Does anyone know that are the local factors, chance events and local decisions? Did that fox hunter-invented thing where they bet on hurdle races influence Commonwealth and European breeding? However the oldest races at list of British flat horse races (1751, 1752 and 1758) are all 30.5 to 33.5 furlongs. It seems we avoided the NASCAR of horse jumping cause it didn't become a major sport till 19th century and fox hunting with horses and dogs and rich people was never popular here. And Europe mostly avoided our weird secondary horse sport of harness (chariot) galloping is a foul racing cause reasons. The most famous races of France and Japan are the metric 12 furlongs while ours is exactly 10 furlongs. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:42, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- This Australian is busting to know what that 22.87 furlong Australian race is. HiLo48 (talk) 09:41, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- As soon as you can explain how Australia turned the old rugby sport into something that looks kind of like rugby, kind of like soccer, kind of like basketball, kind of like quidditch, and I'm sure there is some darts, ballet, and Greco-Roman wrestling tossed in for good measure. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 11:09, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- There may have also been influence from Marn Grook, an Aboriginal Australian form of football that predates white settlement. HiLo48 (talk) 00:13, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- Kind of like ball punching. You can't pass the ball without punching it I think. Also you can touch the ball on the ground once every
20 meters or so15 meters if you're too amateur at the basketballesque dribble every 15 meters to be allowed to keep running from your opponents trying to sportingly hit you thing. I believe they have to run into them in less risky ways (i.e. no headbutting), hug till they're down and turn to avoid landing on them to minimize chance of injury. This was developed as a way for cricketers to use Australia's unusually large sports fields (which are oval) in the offseason. They didn't want it to be too easy to score since they could only practically increase defenders to the current eighteen. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:05, 10 May 2024 (UTC)- The ball punching (more formally called hand-passing) is believed to have come from Gaelic football. There are two legal ways to dispose of the ball, hand-passing and kicking. Dropping it by accident is also OK, if you're not being tackled at the time, but it's not terribly productive. HiLo48 (talk) 00:19, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- I watched one game once because it was listed as the professional sport with the least pay and viewership gap between men and women leagues. It is one of those games where you can't stop watching even if you have no clue what is heppening. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 16:44, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Even less than tennis, gymnastics synchronized swimming and figure skating? Indeed, very interesting, the goalposts are also a more interesting form than even Hogwarts' hoops and cricket's wickets and bails. Would be weird if
gridironAmerican football, basketball, soccer or hockey had consolation points though. Like if there was a second rim 2 feet wider that gave half a goal. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:53, 10 May 2024 (UTC)- Consolation points? In Canadian football, if you miss a field goal, you will often get one point (instead of three if the ball passes between the uprights). Xuxl (talk) 20:38, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, the rouge point. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:57, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, the one point is for keeping the other team from running the ball out of the end zone. Canadian football likes kicks to be returned. --142.112.220.50 (talk) 17:28, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Right should've said American football. In Australian football there's an extra set of goalposts that give 1 point instead of 6 if the main goal's missed but not by too much Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:23, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, the rouge point. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:57, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Consolation points? In Canadian football, if you miss a field goal, you will often get one point (instead of three if the ball passes between the uprights). Xuxl (talk) 20:38, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Even less than tennis, gymnastics synchronized swimming and figure skating? Indeed, very interesting, the goalposts are also a more interesting form than even Hogwarts' hoops and cricket's wickets and bails. Would be weird if
- The Jericho Cup, it's not big enough to have a Wikipedia article. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:43, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Wow. Thanks. It's great to be taught something new about my own country, my own state even, by a non-Australian. Yes, they do things differently in Warrnambool. HiLo48 (talk) 00:09, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- More Australian facts (which may be common knowledge to Australians for all I know): The first Olympic event Australia won was the Athens 1500 meters won by a Victorian Victorian – beating his other 1896 championship by like a few days (first Australian gold medalist won silver cause they hadn't thought of gold on silver/silver/bronze yet, Olympic medals have never been solid gold). The hottest Test was in Adelaide. The parts of Australia and North America made of the hardest-to-erode stuff are the oldest crust on Earth and the rest of the two plates are younger. In 2022 174kg 203cm Daniel Faalele of Melbourne became USA's heaviest top league footballer. The Sydney Harbour Bridge was strongly inspired by a slightly shorter one in New York Harbor (Hell Gate Bridge over Hell Gate, Bronx Kill, Little Hell Gate, the mainland and two small insane asylum islands that were only accessible by ferry for decades after HGB opened (the piers are stone not metal in case an escapee climbed a metal island truss and walked the bridge, if he crossed like 3 am probably no bridge users would know as it was only used by long-distance trains between NYC and South Boston Terminal)). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:09, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, yes, Edwin Flack. Won the 1896 Olympic 1500 metres, and the 800 metres, had a go at the marathon but dropped out, and also competed in the tennis! It's interesting that he is clearly recorded as having been an Australian, although technically Australia did not exist as a nation until 1 January 1901, when six British colonies federated to become Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 01:09, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe they sportingly wanted to not disqualify you from being one of the five nations to never miss a Summer Olympics? Also France, Great Britain (why not UK or England?), Greece and Switzerland. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:44, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- "Great Britain (why not UK or England?)"
- England is only one of three nations of Great Britain, the others being Scotland and Wales. In some sports, such as Association football, they compete as separate teams, in others they compete as one, commonly called Great Britain or Team GB. In yet others, such as Cricket, the 'England' team can include Welsh players (formerly Scottish and Irish also), although there are also Scotland and Wales teams at a lower tier. Moreover, in many sports nationality can be changed by residency.
- The UK (United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland) previously consisted of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland, and after most of the latter became the independent Republic of Ireland, retained the portion called Northern Ireland (6/9 of 1/4 of the island of Ireland). In athletics (and some other sports), Northern Irish citizens can choose to compete for either GB or Ireland; in some they compete for Northern Ireland, in yet others, such as Rugby Union, Northern Irish citizens routinely compete for Ireland.
- The intersections of Geography, Politics and Sport can become complicated. 188.220.175.176 (talk) 10:03, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe they sportingly wanted to not disqualify you from being one of the five nations to never miss a Summer Olympics? Also France, Great Britain (why not UK or England?), Greece and Switzerland. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:44, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, yes, Edwin Flack. Won the 1896 Olympic 1500 metres, and the 800 metres, had a go at the marathon but dropped out, and also competed in the tennis! It's interesting that he is clearly recorded as having been an Australian, although technically Australia did not exist as a nation until 1 January 1901, when six British colonies federated to become Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 01:09, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- More Australian facts (which may be common knowledge to Australians for all I know): The first Olympic event Australia won was the Athens 1500 meters won by a Victorian Victorian – beating his other 1896 championship by like a few days (first Australian gold medalist won silver cause they hadn't thought of gold on silver/silver/bronze yet, Olympic medals have never been solid gold). The hottest Test was in Adelaide. The parts of Australia and North America made of the hardest-to-erode stuff are the oldest crust on Earth and the rest of the two plates are younger. In 2022 174kg 203cm Daniel Faalele of Melbourne became USA's heaviest top league footballer. The Sydney Harbour Bridge was strongly inspired by a slightly shorter one in New York Harbor (Hell Gate Bridge over Hell Gate, Bronx Kill, Little Hell Gate, the mainland and two small insane asylum islands that were only accessible by ferry for decades after HGB opened (the piers are stone not metal in case an escapee climbed a metal island truss and walked the bridge, if he crossed like 3 am probably no bridge users would know as it was only used by long-distance trains between NYC and South Boston Terminal)). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:09, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- Wow. Thanks. It's great to be taught something new about my own country, my own state even, by a non-Australian. Yes, they do things differently in Warrnambool. HiLo48 (talk) 00:09, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- As soon as you can explain how Australia turned the old rugby sport into something that looks kind of like rugby, kind of like soccer, kind of like basketball, kind of like quidditch, and I'm sure there is some darts, ballet, and Greco-Roman wrestling tossed in for good measure. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 11:09, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- The good old days when a random accountant or something could just show up, win gold medals, win gold by switching their steerer with a random non-compatriot spectator they asked right before the race, win tug-of-war, win while somewhat intoxicated and so on. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:59, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- UK vs US Racing – How do they compare? has some detail. Interestingly, races are run in the opposite direction in the US (anti-clockwise) because of William Whitley, who just wanted to be different from the British way of racing. Alansplodge (talk) 13:19, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- You do go anti-clockwise round a roundabout when you keep right, might as well. What was the traditional direction of English athletics tracks for humans? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:46, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- Races at the 1896, 1900 and 1904 Olympics were ran in a clockwise fashion, potentially due to modern Olympics founder Pierre de Coubertin taking his cues from the standards at England’s tracks at the time. Indeed, runners at the the influential running centers of Oxford and Cambridge continued going clockwise until the late 1940s. The Olympic standard changed, however, for the 1908 Games after athletes showed up and claimed they were at a disadvantage after training the reverse way back home. [1] Alansplodge (talk) 18:26, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- This very comperhensive article discusses clockwise vs anti-clockwise horse racing. I found it while searching for information on the fact that here in Australia, it's anti-clockwise in four of our states, and clockwise in the other two. I learnt that horse racing at the ancient Olympics went anti-clockwise. HiLo48 (talk) 23:43, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- Curiously, the antecedants of the Palio di Siena horse race originally ran anti-clockwise, but have been going the other way since 1633. [2] Alansplodge (talk) 15:04, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- This very comperhensive article discusses clockwise vs anti-clockwise horse racing. I found it while searching for information on the fact that here in Australia, it's anti-clockwise in four of our states, and clockwise in the other two. I learnt that horse racing at the ancient Olympics went anti-clockwise. HiLo48 (talk) 23:43, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- Races at the 1896, 1900 and 1904 Olympics were ran in a clockwise fashion, potentially due to modern Olympics founder Pierre de Coubertin taking his cues from the standards at England’s tracks at the time. Indeed, runners at the the influential running centers of Oxford and Cambridge continued going clockwise until the late 1940s. The Olympic standard changed, however, for the 1908 Games after athletes showed up and claimed they were at a disadvantage after training the reverse way back home. [1] Alansplodge (talk) 18:26, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- You do go anti-clockwise round a roundabout when you keep right, might as well. What was the traditional direction of English athletics tracks for humans? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:46, 12 May 2024 (UTC)