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July 30

Digestion before the Fall

Ronald Knox's The Creed in Slow Motion, 1949 ed., is a collection of talks given during the Second World War. On page 68, he says in passing:

I even read a book the other day— not by a Catholic, but by a very intelligent man— which suggested that, before the Fall, man’s will directed his digestion. Think how nice it would be if you could digest your meals at will, like brushing your teeth.

He doesn't mention what book it was. Does anyone have any ideas? Marnanel (talk) 12:58, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I believe it would be difficult to be certain. I have to assume that this was between 1920 and 1930. At the end of the 1800s, Nietzsche was popular, which made way for many very similar philosophical works. Nietzshe had a common complaint throughout his work that mankind previously had control over the body, but over time had devolved into a purely reactionary vessel. He specifically mentions digestion in some of his works. I remember one passage that I studied in college in which he claimed that the flood of information fron a daily newspaper muddies the mind and trains people to quickly react, not think, as the information is digested and the body continues this. It quickly digests whatever is put into the mouth withough considering if it should be digested and what the nutrients might be used for. Because he brought this up in multiple books and the same thoughts were expressed by many others at the time, it would be difficult to identify exactly which book Knox read. You could narrow it down to only non-Catholics, but I doubt many people who published Nietzsche-like books were Catholic. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 14:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

July 31

Book publication dates

For a project I'm working on, I need to check the exact publication dates for a bunch of novels etc. Google is my friend, yet often it gives me wildly varying dates for the same book. A case in point: the publication date for Steve Toltz's A Fraction of the Whole is either:

• 12 Feb 2008, 11 Apr 2008, 1 May 2008, before Jun 2008, 23 Sep 2008, 1 Oct 2008, 6 Oct 2008, 14 May 2009, or possibly others, depending on which hit one chooses to believe. [1]

I understand that editions in different languages, and hardbacks vs. paperbacks can come out at different times. Also, books will be released in foreign countries at varying times, because different publishers will be involved. But in general, these do not seem to explain the variations in publication dates that I'm seeing. What would explain them? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:31, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

A Google search for "A Fraction of the Whole" "first published" gives a large number of mentions of specifically February 12, 2008, apparently by Spiegel & Grau. Amazon states explicitly that this is the first edition.  --Lambiam 23:16, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

As a book collector and researcher, I would not place much reliance on dates given on Amazon; they often refer to a 'first edition' in a particular country, and are often entered well before publication, which may then be delayed or advanced.

I note that Spiegel & Grau were/are a New York publisher, whereas the book's article gives its (presumably first edition) publisher as Hamish Hamilton, Australia, as one might expect for an Australian author's first novel. The online Science Fiction Encyclopedia (Toltz's work verges on the fantastic/near future) also gives the Australian edition as the first, though (as always) it records only the year, and by policy favours the author's 'home nation' when editions have appeared simultaneously or nearly so in more than one country. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.67.235 (talk) 01:51, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Hamish Hamilton was a British publisher; the imprint is since 1986 part of Penguin,^[2] now owned by Penguin Random House. Here on AbeBooks a hardcover edition is listed as "Published by Hamish Hamilton, London, 2008".  --Lambiam 09:25, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, all true, but:

(a) Publishing house and imprint ownership often has several tiers, complexly related, but the 'lowest tier' involved (whose name/colophon will definitively be on the Title Page) is conventionally recognised as 'the publisher' of a work, and;

(b) many large London-based publishers have 'local branches' in other Commonwealth countries; these often publish works by that country's authors which the London 'parent' publishes later, or not at all, or for someone with international appeal simultaneously, and they are recognised as 'publishers' in their own right.

As a book collector (and former editor at a London publisher which was then independent but is now a 'mere' imprint) I often wish these matters were more straightforward, but they're not. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.169.77 (talk) 01:07, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Enough said. Thank you, all. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:56, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Lafcadio Hearn story - One man in a boat

The Algernon Blackwood short story 'The Man who was Milligan' refers to a Lafcadio Hearn story "about a picture of a man in a boat. An observer, watching the picture, had seen the man move. The man actually began to row. Finally, the man rowed right out of the picture and into the place - a temple - where the observer stood." What is the Lafcadio Hearn story? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 01:37, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Doesn't match the "temple" part, but maybe "The Story of Kwashin Koji"—see the last paragraph of the story here. Deor (talk) 14:41, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Oh that must be it, especially with the disappearing never to be seen again. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 17:25, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Trouble finding reliable sources

I'm trying to add information to Beethoven's legacy section, however I'm having trouble finding reliable sources which give good information. When I use google I run into articles which aren't reliable and when I use google scholar all of the sources are locked behind a paywall. And, yes, I tried looking into the sources section of the wikipedia guides. What can I do? Wikieditor662 (talk) 08:51, 31 July 2024 (UTC)Wikieditor662 (talk) 08:51, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

@Wikieditor662 If you cannot find reliable sources, there is nothing to do, because Wikipedia articles should be solely based on reliable sources. You might have better luck if you mention this issue on the article talk page, which will be watched by editors more familiar with the subject. Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:10, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm sure there are reliable sources on the influence of beethoven, I just don't know how to find them. But, sure, I'll ask on the article page... Wikieditor662 (talk) 09:11, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Sources don't have to be online (links are nice to have, but not essential). A Public Library of any size (if you can get to one) should have (or could obtain for you via Interlibrary loan) biographies of Beethoven which will likely discuss this topic at length. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.67.235 (talk) 12:27, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll see if I can do that. Also, are there any other ways to get online sources, as they're much easier to use? Wikieditor662 (talk) 12:34, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Have a look at WP:RX. ColinFine (talk) 18:11, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

A Google Books search often affords no preview or one that is too limited, but you will not run into a paywall. Another searchable repository of books is eBooks and Texts at the Internet Archive. Just searching for Beethoven+legacy turns up possibly useful sources. A source that offers information of interest but is by itself not reliable can serve as a source of inspiration for keywords for a more precisely targeted search. See also Help:Find sources and WP:Advanced source searching.  --Lambiam 21:57, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikieditor662, I agree that archive.org (linked above) is an excellent resource and beats even the best reference library hands down. Opening a free account gives you access to copyright works.

Additionally the Wikipedia Library gives you access to a world of academic articles and books such as JSTOR, Oxford, Brill, Taylor & Francis, etc. etc. Alansplodge (talk) 10:40, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

To get you started, I found The Value of Beethoven which you can access through the Wikipedia Library or you can open a free JSTOR account (click on "Alternate access options" on the right of the page). Alansplodge (talk) 10:50, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you guys so much for this. Unfortunately I cannot access the wikipedia as it requires 500+ edits and 6 months+ of editing. I will look into the JSTOR thing, although I haven't found anything useful from "The value of Beethoven" (except for one thing which I already have from somewhere else), and I do find some of the information on there to be questionable, especially when they said that Gluck and Haydn are part of the 6 greatest composers by far (or something like that). Wikieditor662 (talk) 12:09, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

@Wikieditor662: Until you qualify for the Wikipedia Library, and for things it does not cover, you can ask at WP:RX. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:05, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, but what I wrote has been rejected so there's no point in me continuing. Wikieditor662 (talk) 14:03, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

August 2

Largest unnamed island?

largest unnamed island not created by river bifurcations 115.188.65.157 (talk) 08:26, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

See No-Name Island. This sounds like an ideal question for a search engine. For example Google tells me that "The largest island in a lake is a nameless, approximately 4.0-hectare (10-acre) island at 66.687°N 70.479°W", and there are a lot more Google answers. Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:22, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

The next question would be whether any of these no-name islands have lakes within them... and whether any such lakes have islands within them. (And so on.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:47, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article Recursive islands and lakes. Abductive (reasoning) 05:56, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Google AI responded with the largest unnamed island being an island in a large lake on Baffin Island. Looking at sattelite views, it appears that the only reason an island there wouldn't have a name is because nobody is living there to give it a name. In my opinion, if there is an island near people, it will have a name because humans like to call things by a name, even if that name is "No-name island." 75.136.148.8 (talk) 12:05, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Your report reminds of the mountain called K2, which had no local name because no one local knew about it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:11, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

August 4

Venezuelan parishes map?

Hi hi. Is there anywhere online where it is possible to find a blank locator map for parishes of Venezuela? I tried to google, but I couldn't encounter. I think the data is available in OpenStreetMaps, but I wasn't able to extract one. -- Soman (talk) 13:23, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

The closest I've found is [3]. "Venezuela parishes" is the second map listed. Mapline is a commercial map vendor, but they have a free account option you could try. Some places like that give you some small number of free maps (after which you'd pay), so you might be able to get it for free. As you're likely aware, there are 1,136 parishes. Mapping that would certainly be a chore to do by scratch; you may have to pay for it. Matt Deres (talk) 20:05, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

References to Curran and Farjeon

I'm going through Gershon Legman's joke books. Among the scholarly crimes committed therein is the lack of a bibliography (despite citing works within the body), so that you're kind of left hanging as to which works he was referring to. I'd like to ask about two of them:

1. A number of jokes are cited simply to "Curran, 1938". Was there a folklorist or humorist that would fit that bill? Curran is a very common surname, so I'm hoping someone can shorten the list of possibilities.
2. A humorous poem is appended with "quoting Farjeon's verse, The Sense of Humor". The Farjeon in question is presumably Eleanor Farjeon, whose quaint verses seem ripe for parody, but I don't seem to be able to find a work called The Sense of Humor. The title itself could well be a play on the original title, of course. Does anyone recognize the rhyme/meter here:

The breezes the breezes, they blow through the treeses.
They blow the chemises and through the girls kneeses.
The college boy seeses and does what he pleases.
Which causes diseases, by Jesus, by Jesus.

It certainly seems familiar. Any help for either reference would be appreciated. Matt Deres (talk) 19:56, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I think the Farjeon is Herbert Farjeon, who is quoted in relation to dirty jokes by Stephen Potter in Sense of Humour "To the bees and the breeze and the trees, no doubt, A kitchenmaid heart responds". Potter, Stephen (1954). Sense of Humour. Max Reinhardt. pp. 10–11.

Curran is ""CURRAN, William" [pseud.]. 1938. Clean Dirt. 500 anecdotes, stories, poems, toasts, and wisecracks. Buffalo, N.Y. (At head: "Volume I," but no more published.) 256 pp., 8vo, with supplement of 5 mimeographed leaves of bawdier stories. (Copy: G. Legman.)" from online bibliography "which originally appeared in the October-December 1990 issue of Journal of American Folklore". DuncanHill (talk) 21:41, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Wow! Very well done - thank you very much! Matt Deres (talk) 13:00, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

It appears to be in amphibrachic tetrameter with internal rhymes. Don't know if there's a more specific term. AnonMoos (talk) 01:06, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

August 5

Volkstedt porcelain

Am I right in linking Werkstätten für Porzellankunst (on Arthur Storch (sculptor)) to Volkstedt porcelain? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:02, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I think that's wrong. de:Arthur Storch links to de:Unterweißbacher Werkstätten für Porzellankunst, which, although geographically close, was another institution. The article only mentions a brief connection to the Volkstedt manufactory after 1930. --Wrongfilter (talk) 11:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. In any case, I now have a more authoritative source which gives his employer at that time as ""Triebner, Ens & Eckert". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:13, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

British peers killed in action

James IV of Scotland was the last British monarch to be killed in action, dying at the Battle of Flodden in 1513. But who was the last British peer to be killed in action? I ask because I just came across Archibald Wavell, 2nd Earl Wavell, who (as a Major in the Black Watch) was killed during the Mau Mau rebellion in 1953, and wondered if there was anyone after him. If not, we should probably record that in his article - a dark honour but an historically significant one. Proteus (Talk) 14:48, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

You may well be right, but Wikipedia:When to cite suggests that you would need a reliable source that says he was. A brief Google search failed to find anything for me. Alansplodge (talk) 16:42, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Would the death of Lord Mountbatten (27 August 1979) during the Troubles count? -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 21:29, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

No, because the Troubles were not a war. --Viennese Waltz 13:15, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

It's not about whether it was a war, it's about whether he was in action. He wasn't. He was an old man on holiday. DuncanHill (talk) 20:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) And not really "in action", he was on a fishing trip. Alansplodge (talk) 20:56, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

The Shasu Yahweh inscriptions

What's the common name of these? The Soleb inscription and the Amarah-West inscription? They're hugely important, but we don't have photos up. We need close up photos and transcriptions to match of the spelling of the name there. We probably need specific pages for them, since the focus on them is specific in our zeitgeist but Wikipedia's articles about the Shasu and the tetragrammaton attestations are scattered. Everybody including laymen refer to them, but we need to make them very easy to look up and see. I don't want to download Fleming's flaccid and drudging 2020 book again to check this again, but I am. Temerarius (talk) 18:51, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

We should also find a way to make the clarifying redundancies in hieroglyphic clear on pages like Shasu. That table, people are going to read it and wonder how 8 or 9 glyphs correspond "very precisely" to the Tetragrammaton.

Temerarius (talk) 18:54, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

There are a number of difficulties and issues and emendations on these things that Fleming 2020 and the others don't bother passing on. I didn't realize the common intpretation had so many dependencies. on pages 97-100 of The Origins of Yahwism.

"See Kitchen, Ramesside Inscriptions II (see n. 37), 217 (10). The assumed change from the sign

wA to the sign actually read as rwD/Ar/Aj can be easily explained as a copy error from a hieratic

template, see Görg, “Jahwe – ein Toponym?” (see n. 7), 185. The Soleb-list shows a quail chick

(read w) at the end of the name instead of a vulture (read A) but an alike emendation seems easi-

ly possible. Görg, “Jahwe – ein Toponym?” (see n. 7), 185, considered this as unlikely since the

scribe of the Amarah-list otherwise displays no difficulties in discriminating between the Aleph-

sign and the w-quail chicken. In Görg, “YHWH – ein Toponym?” (see n. 7 and 16), 11 Görg refers

to an opinion expressed by Elmar Edel: Edel transferred his analysis of the scribal mistakes in

the list of African place names of Thutmosis III. to our list and concluded that “natürliche Le-

sung Y-h-wA-A anzusetzen sei” (the natural reading should be Y-h-wA-A)."

This is note 36 on pg 98.

There's more problems than quoted listed.

Here's my copy of Adrom and Mueller's of the Amara West reference: https://i.postimg.cc/bvkRNPpN/image.png

And Soleb: https://i.postimg.cc/q7bKBGgq/image.png

Both of which they transcribe as tA SAsw y-h-w. (I hope y'all don't mind this easier way of transcribing without special characters, the author uses special characters.)

Temerarius (talk) 01:01, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Now I see how well Daniel Fleming obscures his source material.

"The readings of the Egyptian text here follow the text presented by Adrom and Müller (97), with the vowel marker after the last sign, as wȝ."

Get that? That's not clear? It means Adrom and Mueller gave a trigrammaton, and Fleming added ȝ, making a tetragrammaton. This is one of the most deceptive and most difficult to perceive details in an already harmful-to-scholarship book. I think it's a quite legitimate interpretation, but a wrong one, and presented misleadingly instead of argued for. Sneaky operations like this shouldn't be allowed on topics as consequential and controversial as the tetragram. I hope I'm making some mistake, because this is really poor work on Fleming's part. Temerarius (talk) 01:28, 6 August 2024 (UTC) Temerarius (talk) 01:28, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Blind man playing cards in the 18th century

Did John Metcalf (civil engineer) use a Braille deck of cards? No, he couldn't have, because Braille hadn't been invented yet. But his article says he played cards. Well, how, then? 2601:18A:C500:E830:526A:B17D:E5EF:4ACD (talk) 20:36, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

In his memoir, originally published in 1795, Metcalf writes, using the third person, "Cards, too, began to engage his attention; all of which he could soon distinguish, unassisted;"^[4] without further explanation how this remarkable feat was achieved.  --Lambiam 01:44, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

If the printed ink on the cards was sufficiently thick, he might have been able to tell by feel. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:03, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Seems unlikely - probably, since he lost his sight through a disease at 6, he was partially sighted (like a high proportion of "blind" people), and could see the cards if held close to his face. Johnbod (talk) 04:00, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

However, Metcalf writes, "He was then seized with the small-pox, which rendered him totally blind".^[5]  --Lambiam 12:32, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

I think Baseball Bugs is correct, although I don't believe the cards' inks needed to be thick. For an example see Achim Leistner. He is a researcher that can find defects in extraordinarily smooth objects with his hands. Also: "Many studies have shown that passive tactile spatial acuity is enhanced among blind individuals...", from Somatosensory system, due to compensatory neural adaptations called "cross modal plasticity". Hence it seems possible that thick or even thin inks subtly changed the cards' surfaces' coefficients of friction due to its fibers enough for Metcalf to have felt its variation, especially if the cards were unvarnished and not waxed. Such extraordinary acuity is certainly a testable hypothesis, for instance blind subjects can better discern the orientation of fine gratings [6]: "Despite large intragroup variability, the difference between blind and sighted subjects was highly significant: the average blind subject had the acuity of an average sighted subject of the same gender but 23 years younger. The results suggest that crossmodal plasticity may underlie tactile acuity enhancement in blindness." It seems plausible too that some individuals like Leistner can significantly enhance their acuity by improving their fine motor skills and touch awareness given sufficient corrective feedback mechanisms and training. Modocc (talk) 01:09, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

This may be a question for Richard Turner (magician). 75.136.148.8 (talk) 13:01, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

August 6

Trustworthy sources for learning about race and ethnicity

I am looking for good up-to-date learning resources on race and ethnicity. I came from an extraordinarily ill-informed household and have subsequently tried shutting out their conversation, undoubtedly I still carry poor views without knowing. I am at the point where I do not know the basics and just need some help getting this sorted out. Just looking for resources, film, sites. They can absolutely be "dumbed down."

I do not think external science is the right direction for this. It becomes off-topic at best and real uncomfortable at worst. I believe this relates more to social constructs, which I would love to have more of an understanding of. I have Darwin's On the Origin of Species on my shelf, having thumbed through that in relation to this topic was shocking. Lurid. It is obviously flawed, 1859 far too distant, and while it is great I know this is wrong, I cannot tell the specifics of the wrong except for gut feelings. I believe it would help to know more of what is right while knowing I can trust that source. Parameci (talk) 17:10, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Does Darwin argue that there is more than one species of humans? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:05, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

No, in the 19th century, that was Polygenism, and was embraced by racists who disregarded both traditional religion and emerging evolutionary science, such as Louis Agassiz... AnonMoos (talk) 22:17, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia itself is not a reliable source, but our articles on race (human categorization), ethnicity, as well as human evolution, are pretty good starting points riddled with references to reliable sources. Matt Deres (talk) 18:23, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Darwin says almost nothing about human beings in his "Origin of Species". He reserved that for The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex... AnonMoos (talk) 22:14, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

I'd like to hear what the OP found "shocking" and "lurid" about Origin of Species. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:17, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Darwin also had no idea about genetics, so he imagined skin color mixing like paint. It would be best for OP not to start with Darwin but with what we presently know, perhaps with something accessible such as the Y-chromosomal Adam and Mitochondrial Eve articles. Abductive (reasoning) 08:59, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Skin color rather DOES, at least, have the appearance of "mixing like paint": its inheritance pattern isn't like that of eye color and there's no single up/down gene for dark or light skin as with brown/blue eyes.

You are correct, of course, but a better example than skin color to get across what Darwin and his contemporaries thought, is blood: they believed that each offspring's boys was a blend of the two parents' blood. We still have much idiomatic language reflecting this, but they literally thought that was how it worked. 73.2.106.248 (talk) 20:23, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

There are people who believe that race is a concept that can be used to classify humans as belonging to specific races. These people also tend to believe that race is heritable. More precisely, they believe that a child inherits the race of its parents (if they belong to the same race). So they believe it is a biological trait. This belief was prevalent in the 19th century, but we know now that there is no scientific basis for splitting humanity into separate races. This pseudoscientific concept of race also underlies racism.

Ethnicity, on the other hand, is generally understood as being a cultural concept, involving language, customs and traditions, belief systems, folklore, and generally all that is culturally transmitted. It is also a fuzzy concept; someone can have multiple ethnicities. For example, someone can be German but at the same time also, more specifically, Swabian. Or someone can have been raised by Japanese parents while growing up in Norway, participating in both cultures and identifying as both Japanese and Norwegian.

Whatever sources you are consulting, it is good to keep in mind that race and ethnicity are very different concepts. Since it is not quite clear what it is you want to know "the basics" of, it is difficult to give a targeted advice on reliable learning resources. Don't hesitate to ask more specific questions here.  --Lambiam 10:54, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Speculation: It seems possible that the OP has been socialised in an authoritarian, racist and creationist family. Finding a way out of the rigid dogma of eternal and absolute truths requires much courage and will trigger some existentialist fear when a person jumps into the cold water of chaotic free thinking.

This may come as a traumatic and frightening culture shock to those whose reality has been filtered by a secure and rigid dogma of divine law and order. Basically, the OP needs to learn how to think and how to decide without the "security net" of dictatorial Gods and authoritarian masters.

The OP should be highly respected for his / her courage. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 16:09, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

The question does have that vibe to it. It would be nice to hear some followup from the OP, but since they only edit once every month or two, I wouldn't count on it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:18, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

On the subject of Darwin, it's worth noting that he's important historically because he we the first person to come up with a generally plausible explanation of evolution and speciation, and laid the groundwork for future research. But science has progressed massively since then - all sorts of things that he was unaware of have since been discovered, all sorts of questions he raised have now been answered, and some of his explanations have been disproved. As such, reading Origin is more something one would do for understanding the history of his ideas, rather than to learn the current understanding of evolution. Iapetus (talk) 11:35, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Obviously there was much that he didn't know, but he had a way of being right about multiple things based on (and sometimes going beyond) the evidence that was available to him. For example, the "modern evolutionary synthesis" of ca. the 1920s to 1950s largely rejected the importance of sexual selection, but since then its importance been increasingly recognized... AnonMoos (talk) 20:53, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

There is actually very little in On the Origin of Species that has been shown to be outright wrong, and if it is wrong, it is by omission of things Darwin did not know that we know now. The most obvious is the absence of Mendelian inheritance, which actually supports his theory way better than the somewhat muddled, not explicitly described, inheritance theory that seems to have been his mental model: a blending of traits, and in later editions some Lamarckian ideas. See also Heredity § Relation to theory of evolution, which incorrectly includes pangenesis (only adopted by Darwin years later and in another book}.  --Lambiam 09:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Here's what P. B. Medawar said in 1973: AnonMoos (talk) 17:03, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

"Although it has been filled in and filled out, Darwin's theory remains substantially true and his own reputation has never been higher. All biologists except the very young who are in too much of a hurry for their own good read The Origin of Species, and all may still marvel at its closeness of reasoning, cogency, and (for those who go by style) its unmistakable air of authenticity."

August 7

List of the most important 19th c. poems in the Dutch language

Anyone knows where I could find a list of the most important 19th c. poems in the Dutch language? I mean the kind of poems that are in most anthologies and that everyone in Belgium the Flanders and the Netherlands (at least in principle) have all heard about (if not actually heard or read). I don't need the texts (which I should be able to find online) but only their titles and authors. 178.51.2.117 (talk) 13:22, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Here's a list of the poets featured in Gerrit Komrij's anthology De Nederlandse poëzie van de 19de en 20ste eeuw in 1000 en enige gedichten. It also includes 20th century poets, of course, but if you scroll to the bottom, there's a separate overview of those poets who died before 1900. (I realize you asked for poems, not poets, but maybe this will help you).---Sluzzelin talk 19:44, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes it does somewhat. Thanks. 178.51.2.117 (talk) 23:56, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

"... that everyone in Flanders and the Netherlands have heard about," is quite a barrier. I (native Dutch) went over that list of poets and recognised 27 names, most of them from the 20th century. I may have read poems by 5 of them. PiusImpavidus (talk) 09:03, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

"At least in principle": people who've been through high school and have been paying attention.178.51.2.117 (talk) 19:35, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Those who haven't would know two of those poets: Annie M.G. Schmidt, known for her children's poems, which have been staple food at kindergarten and the lower classes of primary school for decades, and whatever poet a nearby street was named after. PiusImpavidus (talk) 09:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

That's a fair comment, and I know close to nothing at all about Dutch poetry (hangs head in shame). I've posted a request for help at the WikiProject Netherlands: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Netherlands#19th_century_Dutch_language_poetry:_Request_for_input_at_the_reference_desk. ---Sluzzelin talk 16:19, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I've asked the most stupid AI (Microsoft's Copilot that comes with Edge) for the "20 best known 19th century poems in the Dutch language" and this is what it came up with:

'Wien Neêrlands Bloed" - Hendrik Tollens

"De Zilvervloot" - Jan Pieter Heije

"De Moerbeitoppen Ruischten" - Nicolaas Beets (Hildebrand)

"De Taal der Liefde" - Everhardus Johannes Potgieter

"De Blinde Dichter" - Willem Bilderdijk

"De Overtocht" - François HaverSchmidt (Piet Paaltjens)

"De Gids" - Conrad Busken Huet

"De Schelde" - Guido Gezelle

"De Leekens" - Guido Gezelle

"De Zang der Zee" - Isaäc da Costa

"De Zwijger" - Isaäc da Costa

"De Zomerzotheid" - Willem Kloos

"De Nieuwe Gids" - Willem Kloos

"De Zwarte Zwaan" - Herman Gorter

"Mei" - Herman Gorter

"De Zang van de Stervende" - Jan Jakob Lodewijk ten Kate

"De Zang van de Zee" - Jan Jakob Lodewijk ten Kate

"De Zang van de Zee" - Adriaan Loosjes

"De Zang van de Zee" - Carel Godfried Withuys

"De Zang van de Zee" - Maria Petronella Woesthoven

Now when I say "the most stupid AI" I'm not exaggerating. The number of errors that I personally notice all the time is hard to believe. Here I am, to begin with, a bit suspicious of five different poems by five different poets all called "De Zang van de Zee" (one is actually "De Zang der Zee"). And there could be other errors. But leaving that aside, how many of these have you heard of? Would you agree that those that are real are among the best known 19th century poems? 178.51.2.117 (talk) 19:35, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The first two are the lyrics of songs; the first, "Wien Neêrlands Bloed", was even for some time the Dutch national anthem, and I think most Dutch people know the song "De Zilvervloot". If song lyrics count, "In een Groen Knollenland" (Jan Goeverneur, 1866) is better known than most or all of the other eighteen poems on Copilot's list, but I would not include such song lyrics in an anthology of poems.  --Lambiam 08:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

The only one on the list (apart from the first two) that I remember having heard of while residing in the Low Countries is Gorter's Mei; people that I met could even recite some lines (but not all 4,381 of them). Another one, not on the list, is "De Zelfmoordenaar" by Piet Paaltjens.

I could not find a poem "De Overtocht" by Paaltjens. If the poem was well known, it should have come up. There is a poem with that title by Hendrik Marsman, published posthumously in 1941. Does Copilot also make up things?  --Lambiam 08:43, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Marsman wrote the poem of the century, which is very well known, but of course is 20th century.

I've heard of "Wien Neêrlands Bloed" and "De Zilvervloot". Those are the kind of songs school children had to sing on market square on Queen's day back in the 1950s. The refrain of "De Zilvervloot" is still pretty well known. I've never heard the full songs. I've also heard of "Mei", but never heard or read it. "In een groen knollenland" is well known too, and because it's so short, people are somewhat likely to know the full text. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:24, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

"Does Copilot also make up things?" I'm pretty sure it does. Here's an example of the kind of things it does. It's a digression, so I'm smalling it. I asked something about Scissor Sister. When it was done it suggested some follow-up questions. It likes to keep you glued there so it always suggests follow-up questions. One of them was "How do Scissor Sister write their lyrics?" (or something like that). According to their answer one of the features of their lyric writing was that they write "in character". I ask, what do you mean "in character", using imaginary alter egos, like Fernando Pessoa's heteronyms? (It was I who made the mistake of introducing Pessoa in the conversation) Copilot answers: (this is textually cut and pasted from its answer which I kept because it was so preposterous): "Scissor Sisters' Alter Egos: Scissor Sisters, an American pop rock band, embraced the concept of alter egos or "heteronyms." Each member of the band created distinct personas to write from different perspectives. Here are some of their key alter egos: Alberto Caeiro: A bucolic poet with a simple, nature-focused outlook. Ricardo Reis: A melancholic poet influenced by classical themes and stoicism. Álvaro de Campos**: A mysterious and avant-garde poet with a modernist sensibility. These alter egos allowed Scissor Sisters to explore diverse themes and styles, enriching their musical universe." Alberto Caeiro, Ricardo Reis and Álvaro de Campos have absolutely nothing to do with Scissor Sisters. They are among Pessoa's heteronyms. Copilot made them into Scissor Sisters alter egos just like that (I assume just because I had mentioned Pessoa in my question).178.51.2.117 (talk) 16:41, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

One candidate: the epitaph by De Schoolmeester (1808–1858) for the poet Hubert Kornelisz Poot: Hier ligt Poot, / Hij is dood. ("Here lies Poot, / He is dead.")  --Lambiam 08:19, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

The book Domweg gelukkig, in de Dapperstraat: de bekendste gedichten uit de Nederlandse literatuur,^[7] referenced in the article Herinnering aan Holland linked to above, presents the selected poems in chronoological order; the numbers 61 to 109 are from the 19th century.  --Lambiam 03:05, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

M855A1 and the Hague Conventions of 1899

This document[8] describes how several US rounds, like the M852 and M118LR, are tested and found to the compliant under the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907.

1. Has the new US M855A1 round undergone similar testing?

2. Is there a publicly available source to show #1?

I tried googling "Hague 1899 XXXX" for any other US round and plenty of good primary sources came up (including the source I gave).

But strangely enough, searching for "Hague 1899 M855A1", "Hague JAG M855A1", "Hague JAG corp M855A1", "M855A1 JAG legal review" or other similar queries only turn up news articles or forum posts, none of which link to any useful secondary or primary sources. OptoFidelty (talk) 19:58, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

August 8

Chain of command on a Navy ship

For my purposes this is specifically WWI-era and British Royal Navy, but I imagine it can be applied more universally: if some catastrophe befalls a naval ship and kills the captain and his lieutenants, how does the chain of command progress after that? Is that universal across navies and across the centuries? I feel like I have a good grip on how Army ranks work, and the clear delineation between enlisted man and officer, but not so much with sailor and officer on a Navy vessel, or the way the officer ranks work when in the Navy they often seem to be tied to a specific role. Dr-ziego (talk) 12:02, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

See chief petty officer, petty officer and leading rating. A Google search failed to find any instance of this actually happening. Although a direct hit on a ship's bridge might kill or injure several officers, others would be stationed in various remote parts of the ship, so that the chances of them all being killed while the ship was still operable seems improbable. Alansplodge (talk) 20:52, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

A bit more digging finds the case of the destroyer HMS Venetia at the Battle of Boulogne in May 1940:

German forces almost succeeded in sinking HMS Venetia as it entered the harbour... With all the officers on the bridge of Venetia severely wounded or killed a young sub lieutenant took command and proceeded out of harbour stern first. [9]

Destroyers and larger warships had an aft conning station, from where the ship could be steered in case the controls on the bridge were disabled. Alansplodge (talk) 21:11, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Followup on Alansplodge's comment — at the time, you had engineering officers (who, I imagine, would work in the boiler rooms with the men they commanded) and other lesser officers from middle-class or lower-class backgrounds, and they definitely didn't work in close proximity to the frequently upper-class-background officers that you're asking about. Even if the captain and lieutenants are killed, the ship still has the engineering officers remaining, unless the catastrophe is significant enough to sink the ship or render her helpless. Nyttend (talk) 22:29, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Another example, although from WWII and the US Navy, was the USS San Francisco (CA-38) which received a direct hit on the bridge during the Battle of Guadalcanal in November of 1942. All bridge officers except one were killed, including Rear Admiral Daniel Callahan, the ship's captain and several other senior officers. The communications officer and the damage control officer were the highest ranking survivors and they managed to save the severely damaged ship, which was repaired at Mare Island Naval Shipyard in California and stayed in active combat service through the end of the war. Cullen328 (talk) 23:07, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Unlikely for all the officers to be killed simultaneously in warfare, I imagine, but what about survival scenarios such as Franklin's lost expedition or (had it gone differently) Bligh's open boat voyage following the Mutiny on the Bounty, or similar smaller-scale situations in lifeboats etc? Dr-ziego (talk) 05:33, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Seeing that senior officers, junior officers, and men are likely to die in roughly equal numbers in the first scenario (starvation and freezing don't care about your rank), it seems unlikely that all the senior officers would die or be incapacitated while juniors are left. Moreover, in that kind of scenario you'd have plenty of time for the captain or a senior lieutenant to designate a replacement. Roughly the same with the Bligh situation, where you'd have time to figure out what would happen to whom; also, in a tiny boat, it might even degenerate to popular vote. Nyttend (talk) 20:57, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Well, there was the case of acting lieutenant William Sitgreaves Cox, an acting lieutenant who became his ship's commanding officer. He was found to have abandoned his post in battle because he took the wounded captain below deck; his name was finally cleared during the Truman administration. That was an American ship, and during the War of 1812, but is that helpful? John M Baker (talk) 22:43, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Verification help

On the article Sacred king, the third unsourced paragraph of the History section says: The Ashanti flogged a newly selected king (Ashantehene) before enthroning him. So that he might remember what it felt like to suffer as a man, to restrain him in his thereafter acquired god-like power, as the Auriga reminded the conquering hero returning home in his triumph, the crowd's ecstatic adulation rolling in waves across his ego, that he remained but a mortal, and must die.

Could someone please verify or confirm whether or not this is true? And what is "Auriga" supposed to mean in this context? StellarHalo (talk) 23:21, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

On the "auriga" reference, see the third paragraph of Auriga (slave). Deor (talk) 01:01, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The only thing I have found is a brief reference in a footnote in a journal article:

Anshan Li. "Asafo and Destoolment in Colonial Southern Ghana, 1900-1953". The International Journal of African Historical Studies, vol. 28, No. 2 (1995), pp. 327-357. doi:10.2307/221617.

It is about the enstoolment of Akan chiefs in general, not specifically the Asantehene.

²³After a new chief was elected, members of the asafo went to fetch him from his house. As a farewell to him as a commoner, they gave him a last ceremonial flogging and smeared him with white clay, then brought him before the assembly. They also perforned the same duty when a chief was destooled. Field, Akim-Kotoku, 22; D.W. Brokensha, Social Change at Larteh (London, 1966), 114.

A detailed description of the enstoolment ritual of the king of another Akan kingdom did not mention flogging, so this does not allow a definite conclusion that this also applies to the Asantehene.

I have removed the flowery addition (by an IP) about the supposed moral effect of the flogging.  --Lambiam 07:52, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

August 9

Implying something by omission

There's a word for that, can anyone remember it? Something like paralipsis. It should be in Glossary of rhetorical terms and/or List of informal fallacies but isn't. Example: Sideshow Bob announces[10] "The following neighboorhood residents will NOT be killed by me: Ned Flanders, Maude Flanders, Homer Simpson...". He finishes while conspiciously omitting Bart Simpson, implying that he intends to kill the now-terrified Bart.

I want to use this word for something unrelated, but can't remember it. Any help? Thanks. 2602:243:2008:8BB0:F494:276C:D59A:C992 (talk) 00:52, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Another example: People who drink tea would never, ever steal the spoon; whereas those who drink coffee ... well, the conclusion suggests itself, doesn't it? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 01:04, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

This sounds like a language question. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:12, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Bugs, I originally posted this question at the language desk but then decided to move it here. I might try there again though. I'm still puzzling over it. JackofOz, there are also cases where the omission is less emphasized. Like if I say "the office is open on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays" that logically says nothing about the other 4 days, but most listeners would infer that the office is closed on those 4 days. 2602:243:2008:8BB0:F494:276C:D59A:C992 (talk) 20:49, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Gricean Implicatures might be relevant. AnonMoos (talk) 23:32, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! That looks very helpful. 2602:243:2008:8BB0:F494:276C:D59A:C992 (talk) 04:18, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Subtext refers to the conveyance of implicit information that is understood but not said. Modocc (talk) 18:30, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Hm. I would just have said praeteritio, but I see you're already aware of that one. If you find out what it is, I'd love to know. -- asilvering (talk) 21:20, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Ellipsis_(linguistics). Or elision? Iapetus (talk) 09:04, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

August 10

C. N. Barham - minister, barrister, hypnotist

I would be grateful to find out more about Charles Nicholas Barham (1846-1923). According to the introduction to his short story 'Tracked: A Mystery of the Sea' in Ashley, Mike, ed. (2018). From the Depths, and Other Strange Tales of the Sea. Tales of the Weird. London: The British Library. p. 123. ISBN 978-0-7123-5236-9. he was "a minister in several congregations throughout England until 1901 when he changed professions and qualified as a barrister. But he was also well known as an amateur hypnotist, fascinated with the potential of the human mind for clairvoyance". I would particularly be interested to know if there was a connexion with either Richard Barham (Thomas Ingoldsby of happy renown), or Thomas Foster Barham, and his sons Charles, Francis, Thomas, and William. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 22:46, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Lady Beauchamp, the Sailors' Rest, Le Havre.

Who was the Lady Beauchamp of the Sailors' Rest, Le Havre? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 23:56, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Caroline Esther Waldegrave^[11] (1826–1898^[12]), later known as Lady Caroline Proctor-Beauchamp, the wife and later widow of Thomas William Brograve Beauchamp-Proctor (1815–1874) of Langley Park. She died herself on 3 July 1898 at the Sailors's Rest.^[13] The Sailors' Rest in Le Havre was located at 23 Quai Casimir-Delavigne and apparently^[14] still extant in 1918. There is another French article here, but it is behind a paywall.  --Lambiam 02:43, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

@Lambiam: Thank you. DuncanHill (talk) 09:59, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

August 11

Overthrowing the Bolsheviks

Did any prominent Americans seriously advocate in favor of a large-scale US military intervention (astronomically larger than the one in real life) to overthrow the Bolsheviks during the Russian Civil War? If so, which ones and when?

Seems like a logical move for the US to do since it wasn't anywhere near as badly weakened by WWI as the various other Great Powers were (other than Japan, which was located too far away from European Russia). And with the benefit of hindsight, it could have been even in the US's own interests since this might have meant no subsequent US participation in a Second World War as well as in wars in Korea and Vietnam.

Also, such a US move would have made Russia free and "safe for democracy", which one would think that Woodrow Wilson would have appreciated, with his pro-democracy and pro-liberty rhetoric. 172.59.128.60 (talk) 04:56, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Not answering your question, but your comments — bear in mind that the US was very isolationist immediately after the end of the war. Much of Wilson's political capital was spent on his unsuccessful campaign for ratification of the peace treaty with Germany that ended the war; the Senate refused ratification because the treaty required participation in the internationalist League of Nations, so the US signed a separate peace treaty. Just two years after the war's end, Wilson's replacement Warren Harding was elected on a strongly isolationist platform. Between those events, just eleven months after the war ended and several months before the treaty's defeat, Wilson suffered an incapacitating stroke; at points he was bedridden, and his wife controlled almost everything (see Edith Wilson#Increased role after husband's stroke), so he wasn't in a place to go campaigning for another war. And finally, the US had other domestic concerns; the First Red Scare occupied most US anti-communist attention, and a postwar depression affected Americans' finances. Nyttend (talk) 20:02, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

One would have thought that the First Red Scare would have made Americans more hawkish in regards to Russia. Remove the Bolshevik threat at its root, so to speak. 172.59.128.60 (talk) 20:22, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

The answer would be something like "but that's overseas, and we just sent our boys overseas to fight a useless foreign war, so let's keep them at home and deal with our own problems". Nyttend (talk) 20:52, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Was WWI already perceived as being useless in 1919-1920? Anti-German propaganda was still entrenched in people's memories back then, I would think? 172.59.128.60 (talk) 21:10, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, after the war's end American popular opinion very quickly moved toward seeing it as a catastrophic waste of lives and money that could have been saved by staying out (otherwise the Treaty wouldn't have been rejected), and the wartime anti-German sentiment was quickly seen as preposterous. Nyttend (talk) 21:43, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

The Americans were supporting the White Russians during the civil war - Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War should have the details. -- asilvering (talk) 21:17, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

The question asks about an intervention "astronomically larger than the one in real life", so 172.59.128.60 is already aware of that. Nyttend (talk) 21:43, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

The OP might also bear in mind that the task of making "Russia free and 'safe for democracy'" might involve a little bit more than decapitating the Red leadership.

Nobody was delusional enough to want to join a new war right after winning "the war to end all wars". Donald "I'm a stable genius" Trump hadn't been born yet. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:57, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Bear in mind that other Communist revolutions, e.g. throughout Germany and in Hungary, lasted only a few months. Through the summer of 1919, interventionists perhaps wouldn't care about backward Russia as much as they would about the more developed states of Germany and Hungary. Marxist orthodoxy held that a revolution of the proletariat demanded a significant-size proletariat in the first place — which Russia didn't have — so people who had studied Marx might have anticipated Russian Communism to fall apart faster than German and Hungarian Communism. By the end of the summer of 1919, German and Hungarian collapses could give further reasons to anticipate that Russian Communism wouldn't last a long time either. (Why waste money and men intervening in a war where they weren't needed?) Also, since the Whites controlled significant sections of Russia and were maintaining active and organised military opposition to the communists, interventionists would have had less reason to advocate for sending a large-scale military intervention. Nyttend (talk) 07:35, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Multinational states or empires collapsing and millions of co-ethnics being left stranded outside of their respective nation-state?

Which cases have there been of multinational states or empires collapsing and millions of co-ethnics being left stranded outside of their respective nation-state? Off the top of my head:

• Ethnic Germans after the collapse of the German Empire and Austria-Hungary in 1918
• Ethnic Magyars after the collapse of Austria-Hungary in 1918
• Ethnic Serbs after the collapse of Yugoslavia in 1991 and beyond
• Ethnic Russians after the collapse of the USSR in 1991

In all of these cases, there were also subsequent revanchist wars (World War II in the first two cases, some of the Yugoslav Wars, specifically those in Bosnia and Croatia, in the third case, and the current Russo-Ukrainian War in the fourth case.

There are also a couple of other examples of this:

• Ethnic Poles after the First and Second Partition of Poland, and also during the existence of the Grand Duchy of Warsaw and the Kingdom of Poland (1916-1918). The partitions of Poland were, of course, eventually reversed when Poland's independence was restored after the end of World War I, with the creation of the Second Polish Republic.
• Ethnic Romanians between 1940 and 1944, after the Second Vienna Award (which was reversed in 1944), the Treaty of Craiova, and the Soviet annexation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina

What else qualifies for this? 172.59.128.60 (talk) 05:31, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

What is a co-ethnic? HiLo48 (talk) 06:13, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Iraqi Turkmen and Syrian Turkmen after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. Turks in the Balkans could also count. StellarHalo (talk) 08:25, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

@HiLo48: Some clues here Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2024 February 27. 2A02:C7B:21D:5400:40DC:49E9:7557:F298 (talk) 10:06, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Clues maybe, but I'm still confused. HiLo48 (talk)

I think "co-ethnics" is shorthand for "people of the same ethnicity". 2A02:C7B:21D:5400:40DC:49E9:7557:F298 (talk) 10:22, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Yep! 172.59.128.60 (talk) 19:11, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Likely almost any event in which significant territory and associated population shifted polities would meet some version of this question. Any answer will need to define the terms being used, but pick a conflict and you'll probably be able to find an example. CMD (talk) 10:24, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

See also White Africans of European ancestry. Alansplodge (talk) 11:41, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

In which case White Americans of European Ancestry and Black Americans of African Ancestry (inter alia) are WP articles of importance. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 16:08, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Maybe not the same; the African Americans were forcibly displaced rather than being stranded colonisers, and the American Colonists displaced themselves. Alansplodge (talk) 18:39, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I haven't read it but:

• Orizio, Riccardo (2001). Lost white tribes: the end of privilege and the last colonials in Sri Lanka, Jamaica, Brazil, Haiti, Namibia, and Guadeloupe (1st Free Press ed.). New York: Free Press. ISBN 0743211979.
• Orizio, Riccardo (2001). Lost white tribes: the end of privilege and the last colonials in Sri Lanka, Jamaica, Brazil, Haiti, Namibia, and Guadeloupe (1st Free Press ed.). New York: Free Press. ISBN 9780743211970.

seemed interesting when I read about it, especially the part about the Poles in Haiti. I think that the original is in Italian.

--Error (talk) 19:16, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

August 13

Gorsuch Roberts Alito Kavanaugh

Are these United States Supreme Court Justices adherents of the Jesuit Society?Rich (talk) 03:21, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

As a graduate of a Jesuit university who is not Catholic, the notion of "adherents" seems strange to me in this context. None of these men are priests, and the Society of Jesus does not accept laymen as members. Gorsuch attended Columbia, Yale and Oxford. None of those universities are Jesuit. Roberts attended Harvard. Not Jesuit. Alito attended Princeton and Yale. Neither is Jesuit. Kavanaugh attended Yale. Not Jesuit. There are about 27 Jesuit universities in the United States. None of these Supreme Court justices attended one of them. Cullen328 (talk) 07:58, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I hope this is not an invitation to debate. The notion of "adherent" (rather than "member") of the Society of Jesus is not particularly meaningful. Attending a Jesuit-run college-preparatory school (as Gorsuch and Kavanaugh did) is not a kind of brainwashing that turns one into an "adherent".  --Lambiam 08:50, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

There are allegations that "Amy Coney Barrett, John Roberts, Clarence Thomas, Brett Kavanaugh, and Samuel Alito either belong to or are close to members of Opus Dei". Opus Dei is different from the Jesuits. Pope Francis is a Jesuit and, in 2022, moved the position of Opus Dei within the church. Both organizations were founded by Spaniards but with centuries of difference. Opus Dei has a place for secular married and single men and women. Jesuits include only single men (but for, perhaps, Joanna of Austria, Princess of Portugal), most of them priests.

--Error (talk) 09:53, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Choice-of-court clauses in US federal courts

Special:Random led me to Carnival Cruise Lines, Inc. v. Shute, in which the plaintiffs sued in one state despite a contract requiring them to bring any suits in a different state. When US federal law is relevant, if you violate a forum selection clause as these folks did, do you generally lay yourself open to a counter-lawsuit for breach of contract, or do you "merely" lay yourself open to having your lawsuit dismissed? Forum selection clause#Effect of breach says it is theoretically possible to sue for damages for bringing proceedings in breach of a jurisdiction clause, examples are rare, but the source discusses English law. Nyttend (talk) 08:03, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I cannot cite relevant cases, but it stands to reason that when one party to a contract causes significant damages to the other party by voluntarily disregarding their contractual obligations, they thereby make themselves liable to legal action. I can't think of a reason why this should be otherwise here, unless for some reason the forum selection clause on the contract is null and void by law.  --Lambiam 08:59, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

There is often a good faith dispute as to the validity of a forum selection clause (as was the case in Carnival Cruise Lines v. Shute), and the appropriate remedy for the choice of an inappropriate venue is either transfer to the appropriate venue or dismissal without prejudice. I suppose that a court might be willing to grant some kind of damages for a bad faith choice of an inappropriate venue, but I've never seen that granted or even asked for in a U.S. court. John M Baker (talk) 22:24, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Endorsements

I have just noticed that there is a full category of Category:United States presidential election endorsements. On first sight, they seem to be a list of "I will vote for X in the upcoming elections!" said by notable people. Just to be clear (I'm not from the US and know little about its laws), is a political endorsement in the US really just that? I mean, is it something formal or legally binding on the one who said it, part of some legal requirement, or a relevant aspect of the electoral process? Or is it just trivia like a "List of notable Star Trek fans"? Cambalachero (talk) 15:19, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

There is no possibility of these pronouncements being legally binding. The word "endorsement" means literally "writing on the back." That is what happens when someone "endorses" a cheque. An endorsement on an insurance policy is a change of the terms and conditions. That may originally have been done by writing on the back, but was often effected by the use of stickers modifying the standard wording. See political endorsement. 91.234.214.10 (talk) 16:17, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I have seen the stub, and it's not of much help, because it's that, a stub. Cambalachero (talk) 16:23, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Back to the original question: No, these endorsements have no legal standing. A person who has some fame (politician, actor, etc) may announce publicly that he/she supports a certain candidate (party, or policy), as a means of encouraging other people to support the same candidate. It is just as easy to endorse someone as it is to change your mind and un-endorse them. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 17:28, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Cambalachero, back to the original question: some of these are more significant, e.g. List of United States presidential election endorsements made by The New York Times. NYT consistently gives its reasoning for its endorsements, and they often get mentioned in other publications, e.g. this from CNN; it's not merely saying "I'll support X". Also, pre-1960s primary endorsement pages are much more significant, since these date from a time when the party officeholders in question were much more significant. Today, primary elections functionally choose the party's candidate, and the party convention is generally a rubberstamp and a chance for the party to get publicity, but in that era, the convention made the real decisions, and officeholders such as the ones mentioned in Endorsements in the 1920 Republican Party presidential primaries were significant because they were a large share of the convention, and (perhaps, I don't know) might have been bound to their endorsements. This is radically different from List of Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign endorsements, which is basically what you describe on first sight. Nyttend (talk) 22:02, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

August 14

Where was Rochambeau paroled?

Donatien-Marie-Joseph de Vimeur, vicomte de Rochambeau was a prisoner on parole in England after the Surrender of Cap Français. Where was he paroled? I ask as it forms part of the frame for Q's short story "The Monkey-Flower". Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 00:22, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

I found one source (Frenchempire.net) that says he was held in Norman Cross Prison. Blueboar (talk) 01:22, 14 August 2024 (UTC)