Wikipedia:Peer review/Walter de Coventre/archive1

Walter de Coventre edit

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I've listed this article for peer review because I would like peer comment (but don't expect it) and because I want the bot to go over it. Thanks, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 09:47, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the article does a good job of establishing how little we know about this person and I think it offers just the right amount of context for his life. Haukur (talk) 11:02, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The first question I had was: Is this Scots for Coventry?; the answer is a definite maybe, but it took a while to find. The second sentence is Born perhaps in the early 14th century from a family near Abernethy, Scotland, but it's not only the birthdate that's uncertain (and from the data, the early 14th century is relatively certain). Perhaps something like There is no direct evidence on his birthdate, his family, or their origin; there are some theories. with a link to the family and origins section?
I still dislike "×" in an article intended for general readers; but some of these are less obviously replaceable. Perhaps
- Between 1333 and 1335: Granted Licentiate in the Arts
- By 1345: Obtained Abernethy canonry and prebend
- Between 1348 and 1351: Exchanged Abernethy canonry and prebend

and so on. I think the Abernethy line is the only one that would need division, and the remodeled version does contain one more scrap of information.

I do prefer and to the slash (which is ambiguous to readers who are not quite sure what a prebend is) even in tables. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:10, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Bad relations is a touch weak for an endemic state of war. Scots humour, I presume? (Most readers won't get it.)
Either at some later stage in 1370 or else in early 1371, Walter de Coventre died. This is known because on April 27, 1372, the Pope provided Andrew Magnus to the vacant bishopric of Dunblane. Try Walter de Coventre must have died later in 1371 or in very early 1372; because on April 27, 1372, the Pope provided Andrew Magnus to the vacant bishopric of Dunblane. (In fact I'll do that. If the typo is in the other direction, please fix; but the tightness makes it more readable.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:19, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Technicalities: accession parliament, provided, outside the papal curia.
- These are from the same paragraph, and there may be others. I am not advocating a purge, but I am not convinced our general approach should be to compel the reader to understand 14th century language in church or state. In general, it is our job to understand it, and then to explain it to him. The following are questions; I'm not sure the answers are yes:
  - Is it worth lengthening the sentence to say "parliament at his accession", with link?
  - How much do we lose by saying appointed instead of provided?
  - The present text translates as not in attendance at the papal court, which is good; but would it be simpler to say: He was not in attendance at the papal court when he died (or even He did not die at Rome, unlike many ecclesiastics.) and put "outside the papal curia" in the footnote, with the source we are quoting? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:47, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cockburn thought it came from the English Coventry ... i.e. that the de Coventre family were English or Anglo-Norman immigrants ... something I guess supported by their use of Norman forenames. Watt, more of an expert, thought it came from that place call Coventre (etc) near Abernethy, which is probably more likely as all the signs are that he was from that area. No idea if that place is linked to the English Coventry or an independent name of Gaelic derivation. I didn't speculate as none of the sources do.

I don't think enough people have written 'bout old Walter to use the phrase "some theories". The only argumentation I saw was in Watt, who as he always does guestimates their rough birth-period by working back from their graduation ... i.e. people are usually of a certain age when they do that. It's a bit like ... though far from being exactly like ... a Scottish or American student graduating with their first degree ... you can guess pretty accurately if they graduated in 2004, they were probaly born in the first half of the 1980s. I'll relook at the text and see what I can do.

I still dislike "×" in an article intended for general readers; but some of these are less obviously replaceable. Perhaps
- Between 1333 and 1335: Granted Licentiate in the Arts
- By 1345: Obtained Abernethy canonry and prebend
- Between 1348 and 1351: Exchanged Abernethy canonry and prebend
and so on. I think the Abernethy line is the only one that would need division, and the remodeled version does contain one more scrap of information.'

My worry would be it'd make that box unwieldy ... but I'll do it and see. Probably won't be too bad, and prolly as you say worth doing to make the meaning more transparent to the non-historian.

I do prefer and to the slash (which is ambiguous to readers who are not quite sure what a prebend is) even in tables.
Noted.

Bad relations is a touch weak for an endemic state of war. Scots humour, I presume? (Most readers won't get it.)
Things we're that great in the Anglo-Scottish relations front of this time, 'tis true. It wasn't meant as humour though ... just to cover the whole timeframe when there were sometimes years of nominal peace.

outside the papal curia.
The little interpretation of that I gave was me sort of guessing. I've assumed it means died outside the Roman court [at Avignon], and that seems pretty safe, but it is my assumption.

I'll go over the article later today and try to get in as many of your improvements as possible. Thanks for the feedback!!! Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 13:46, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]