Wikipedia:Peer review/Prison education/archive1

Prison education

I've listed this article for peer review because I recently blew it up and rewrote it, and now I'd like advice on what needs to be improved before I eventually nominate it for FA. In return for your comments here, I will happily review any PR, GAN, FAC or FLC of your choice.

Thanks, Freikorp (talk) 13:21, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Happy to close this now as I've received two very thorough reviews. :) Freikorp (talk) 03:47, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Comments from Eddie891

• I will be commenting in the next two days. This is a request to ping me in two days if I forget. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 13:00, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

• Thanks so much for doing this Eddie891. I've really been looking forward to someone commenting on this. Just pinging you as its been two days. :) Freikorp (talk) 14:21, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

• Ok, yeah, sorry (I forgot) :) Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 14:42, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
• I'm noticing there's no history section on Asia, and it really isn't mentioned very much. Is there a reason for that?

• Just the same reason there isn't much on Latin American, the Middle East or Africa. I couldn't find much on prison education in these locations. I attribute this to a combination of three factors. a) Most countries in these region are third world; I wouldn't be surprised if many of them don't have prison education at all. b) If they do have it to some extent they'd still be far less likely to have academic types want to do a study on its effectiveness (or possibly wouldn't even allow such a study to take place), and c), if such a study does exist it's likely to not be in English, which is the only language I speak fluently. That being said, I will try and make a more concerted effort to find information on prison education in first world Asian countries like South Korea and Japan. I was surprised to find that, as mentioned in the article, Singapore's prison education program is extremely poor, so I won't be surprised if S Korea and Japan are no different though.

• @Eddie891: I spent today digging for sources, and now have a sub-section on the history of prison education in Asia, as well as a new paragraph on Asia in the 'Funding allocation and prevalence' section. Freikorp (talk) 09:32, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

• Are there prison education examples gone wrong? So to speak, are there noticable places that they are not as successful in the United States?

• Hmmm, that's a good question. I haven't come across anything other than the old US study already mentioned in the article, that found while it was beneficial for inmates, the effects on recidivism were inconclusive. I did compile some collapsed information on the talk page under the heading 'Additional info', basically stuff that was interesting but didn't quite fit into the article in its current format. In that there was the finding that providing prison education for free to Aboriginals in Australia (though not to anyone else) created racial tension resulting from jealousy. I thought about adding that to the 'Challenges' section of the article but it seemed a bit too selective/isolated to be considered a general challenge to prison education. I'd be happy to add it into the article somewhere though if you like. But yeah, I haven't come across any information that prison education itself is not successful in some way. Freikorp (talk) 00:41, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

• I'm so sorry that I can't comment more right now, but I will later today/tomorrow. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 14:42, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

• No rush. I've been waiting nearly two months for any comments so happy to wait another day or two. :) Freikorp (talk) 00:41, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

• "Iceland, which as of 2005 averages only 108 prisoners in the country" can we update this? and if it is averaging, 100 might be better. 'averaging' 108 is a bit too specific for an average.

• Done. The source actually says an average of 100 male prisoners and 8 female, so I was just combining the two. I agree it works better by just saying 100. I can't imagine there's been any drastic changes to this figure in the last decade. Freikorp (talk)
• I've updated the figure to an average of 137 inmates as of 2011. Freikorp (talk) 11:51, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

• For the history section, I feel it could use a bit more comprehensiveness, even if it is just "Country X began educating prisoners after legislation was passed in XXXX" Not mentioning some countries, seems like a gap that should be covered.

• The problem is those sources don't appear to exist. It's hard enough finding information about prison education in general. For example, I've been searching for a while now to find out what the budget is for prison education in Australia (and several other countries) but can't find a single thing. When prison education first began in certain countries, is even harder. The information currently in the history section is everything I've found so far. Freikorp (talk) 03:32, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
• @Eddie891: I've spend another day digging, and I've now added more info to the article on the history of prison education in the UK, Soviet Union and Norway. That's about the best I can do for now. Freikorp (talk) 11:51, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

• More to come.Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 00:45, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
• "However in 1994 Congress passed the" perhaps add a comma "However, in 1994 Congress passed the"
• "the number in New York alone dropped from 70 to four" I'd recommend removing 'alone'
• "programs by replaced, at least to some extant, by rehabilitative programs including education." perhaps you meant "programs be replaced, at least to some extant, by rehabilitative programs including education."
• Shouldn't "Report of the inquiry into education and training in correctional facilities" be "Senate Report of the Inquiry into Education andTraining in Correctional Facilities"?
• "In 2001, a national strategy was launched; by 2006, all states and territories were offering some form of tertiary education to inmates." perhaps change to "In 2001, a national strategy was launched, and by 2006, all states and territories were offering some form of tertiary education to inmates."

• The above five issues have been addressed. Freikorp (talk) 13:59, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

• I understand that there is little information available, so I am sorry for always asking more, but it just seems like the bit about the UK only goes to 1928, whereas other parts go all the way to present day. I'd recommend even just a sentence more about the UK to present day.

• @Eddie891: It's completely reasonable to ask for more information :). It took some time, but I found a great journal article on prison education in the UK and have updated the article accordingly. Freikorp (talk) 21:34, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

• Nice work on the Asia section! I particularly like the quote.
• Saying "In XX, as of XXXX, blah blah blah" sounds somewhat bland. Perhaps spice up a bit, like "In a survey conducted in XXXX, ___ reported ___ in XX"
• I really do like this article. More to come. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 11:43, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
• "Parliamentary Gaol act " perhaps capitalize "Act"
• "on a competitive bases" should this be "on a competitive basis"?
• "the "Elmira" system of " does elmira need to be in quotes? Perhaps it would be better written as "the ' Elmira system ' of"
• with either poor or non-existent facilities" Perhaps remove 'either' to get "with poor or non-existent facilities"
• "and scarce and out-dated curricula and " lots of 'ands'. Not sure if there's a better way to do it, but there may well be.
• Likewise, some countries will consider rehabilitation programs or physical education to be educational programs, whereas others will not." Perhaps remove the will to get "Likewise, some countries consider rehabilitation programs or physical education to be educational programs, whereas others do not.

• I've addressed the above six points. Thanks again. :) Freikorp (talk) 23:10, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

• Check this out! Brand new (14hrs), it might contain something new. two days ago. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 23:15, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

• Cheers for finding this. I have a busy day tomorrow but will hopefully get a chance to check it out Sunday. :)
• Done. Thanks again.

• "of four percent for people who only attended the course and 2.5%" you spell out "four percent" before saying "2.5%" perhaps change one to fit the other.

• Done.

• " A prison education program in Ukraine had only three out of 168 participants (1.8%) re-offend in 2013" as opposed to the normal Ukrainian recidivism rate of 30% within three years.

• Hey thank heaps for finding this. I've added it to the article.

• Link to US dollar for consistency?

• Done.

• "Government analysts estimated that the education program was saving taxpayers over $24 million a year based solely on the costs of re-incarceration." in Maryland alone?

• Yep, that's what the source says.

• "This estimation did not factor in the additional savings due to reduced strain on police, judicial and social service systems, nor the financial benefit from the fact that prisoners who gain employment after release pay taxes and are better able to support their families." this seems a bit too POV. Perhaps say instead "The estimation only factored in x, y and z."

• There's no original research here; the source specifically says it didn't factor in those savings: source reads "No one has done any calculations about other savings, but one can assume that there are tremendous dividends not only in reduced costs of incarceration, but also in costs of the police, judicial, and social service systems. Finally, and more importantly, people who no longer commit crime and choose to work in lawful jobs pay taxes and support their families." Do you still think this needs changing?

• more to come. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 15:09, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
• Is there any history of Morocco and Kyrgyzstan? if there's nothing else, don't bother adding.

• Expanded.

• "accessing education is some European countries" "accessing education in some European countries
• "In 2012, 210 inmates sat for General Certificate of Education exams, compared to 239 in 2015" maybe switch the years around.

• Above two issues have been fixed.

• That's it. I'd appreciate it if you review mine and GreenMeansGo's GA nom of Reading Railroad Massacre. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 17:46, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

• Thanks so much for your review. I'll be happy to review your GAN. :) Freikorp (talk) 04:24, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Comments from Ceranthor

Freikorp, just a reminder that I'll be posting some comments here. ceranthor 00:56, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Ceranthor, I'm looking forward to it. :) Freikorp (talk) 01:51, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Lead

• "History and current practices in prison education vary greatly between different countries." - Think it would be better as "The history of"
• "People entering prison systems worldwide have, on average, lower levels of education than general populations" - should be "the general population"; never heard of "general populations"
• "Staff and budget shortages, a lack of educational resources and computers, and the transfer of prisoners between correctional facilities are common problems." - here you use the serial comma; earlier you didn't ("Educational courses include basic literacy programs, high-school equivalency programs, vocational education and tertiary education."). Stay consistent throughout the article.

• Fixed the above three issues.

• Rather than linking to recidivism directly, I'd refer to it in less jargon-y language, such as recurrent criminal behavior or something along those lines

• Hmm, I'll try and think of a good way to put it. 'Recurrent criminal behavior' doesn't strike me as the best way. Would you be happy for me to just change it to 're-offending'?

History - Europe

"Prison education programs vary between countries." - In Europe? or globally? unclear.

• Globally, but I've just removed it as it goes without saying. This is a vestige from before the History section had any subsections for continents.

• "The small size of prisons in Iceland, while having many advantages, makes running organised educational programs difficult, as the small number of inmates may have drastically different educational needs.[7]" - this makes no sense... wouldn't the problem be larger in bigger countries where there are more inmates and more different educational needs?

• Perhaps I've worded it badly. Ok so those 137 prisoners in Iceland, they're not in one jail, there spread between half a dozen or so jails in the country. If there are only 30 people in the entire jail, can you imagine how difficult it would be to run an educational class that caters to all of them? As opposed to an American jail that has more than 1,000 inmates - you'd easily be able to create a class of 30 inmates from that pool who all had similar characteristics, and a class with similar attributes would be easier to teach. I assume it would be hard to justify running an educational course for only five inmates with similar characteristics at a prison of 30. Does that make sense? I'm happy to just delete this whole sentence if you like; it's not important, I just thought it might explain to the reader why Iceland didn't get prison education till much longer.

• "The Prison Act of 1877 is considered to have established the prison system that still remained in effect until the 1990s," - remove "still" here
• "Over 150 organisations applied, and by 1994, there were 45 educational providers across 125 prisons, providing various forms of education including secondary and tertiary.[8]" - more than, not over

• Above two issues have been addressed.

• "natural science, history of culture and foreign languages.[12]" - serial comma or not?'

• Not. As a rule I'm not a fan of the Oxford comma, but I do get carried away when writing sometimes so might have accidentally added a couple here and there.

@Freikorp: Before more comments, I have some concerns about comprehensiveness. Is there no information about prison education in other major countries in Europe? ceranthor 00:12, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

• @Ceranthor: Well there probably is if I looked hard enough. Basically I just kept digging until I thought I had a nice enough representative sample for Europe. Five mainland countries, the UK, plus some bonus stuff on the Soviet union. There's 50 countries in Europe; how many do you think I should cover? I was worried the section might start looking too 'listy' if I tried to cover too many of them. Oh and before you comment on how I've only got two countries in Asia, those were the only two I could find. It's very hard to find information on prison education in poorer nations, probably because they don't have any. I wasn't surprised to find a reasonable amount of info on Japan, though I couldn't find any on South Korea . I do remember seeing a couple sources commenting on 're-education' camps in North Korea but I really don't think that kind of 'prison education' fit into this article. Also just for FYI the ping function doesn't work unless you place a ping AND sign your comment within a single edit. :) Freikorp (talk) 04:43, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

• My thinking on the matter is that the current article is compressive enough, and if any more information is to be added, it would need to be in a sub article. I'll be continuing my comments later today. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 14:31, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Understood. ceranthor 21:55, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Rest of History

• "In the early 19th century United States, secular education programs were run in prisons" - this would be more engaging in the active voice

• I'm so bad at this. I've reworded it myself but feel free to change it again if it still has the same problem.

• "The first major education program aimed at rehabilitating prisoners was not launched until 1876.[13]" - I'd just get rid of the negation here and say the first program was launched in 1876
• "Zebulon Brockway, the superintendent of Elmira Reformatory," - I'd explain where Elmira Reformatory is
• "As a result, by 2005 only about a dozen prisons were running post-secondary education," - Don't think "running" is the correct word here
• "The development of prison education within Canada has paralleled that of the US. Royal Commissions in 1914 and 1936 both recommended that work programs be replaced, at least to some extant" - think you mean "extent"
• "reading and writing classes began being implemented into the prison system on a larger scale from at least 1881." - "from at least"? I don't think that's quite right grammatically

Literacy rates and available programs

• "In New Zealand, 66% of inmates reported having no formal qualification compared to 23% of the general population in 2016.[36]" - I think "qualification" may be too vague here for what you want
• "Educational programs run within prisons are typically funded by them" - you can cut out "run" before "within"

Challenges

• "Shifts in the way courses are offered, such as correspondence courses increasingly being offered only online, are a significant barrier, as most countries do not permit inmates to access the internet.[41][50][51]" - "correspondence courses"? Also this sentence needs to be rewritten it's too clunky and doesn't flow well
• "Being moved between facilities is a major cause of inmates ceasing to study at university level.[49]" - "ceasing to study" should just be "ceasing study"
• "Other hindrances to prison education are staff shortages preventing programs from being run,[41]" - no need for "preventing programs from being run"; staff shortages implies that
• "Prisoners themselves may be reluctant to participate in programs because of previous failures in education, embarrassment over their low literacy, lack of faith in their abilities or just disinterest.[37]" - cut out "just"; it's unnecessary

Will finish with a final round after these are addressed. ceranthor 21:55, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks so much Ceranthor, this has been really helpful. All these new issues have been addressed, with the possible exception of the one I replied to. Freikorp (talk) 23:17, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Reductions in recidivism

• "results indicated that inmates who participated in an education program were over 33% less likely to return to prison.[65][66] " - more than, not over
• "A 1997 study of 3,200 inmates in Maryland, Minnesota and Ohio found a reduction rate of 29%,[16] and a 2003 study of Californian prisons found a 10–30% reduction.[68]" - can you explain the variance here? was this across different prisons? if so, you should clarify that
• "A meta-analysis of 15 studies" - meta-analysis is double-linked
• "In England and Wales, a 2014 study of over 6,000 prisoners" - more than, not over

Cost and financial benefits

• "The cost of providing education to a prisoner was between $2,000" - why the sudden link to USD here?

• Oh, just because it's the first mention of US dollars; other currencies have links.

• "The cost of providing education to a prisoner was between $2,000 and $3,782 per year, and the cost of incarceration itself was $32,000 to $40,000 per year, in the US in 2009, according to the National Association of State Budget Officers.[74] " - why is "in the US in 2009" set off in commas? it disrupts the flow of the sentence
• "Government analysts estimated that the education program was saving taxpayers over $24 million a year based solely on the costs of re-incarceration." - more than, not over
• "A 2009 study found that in the UK, every £1 spend on prison education saved taxpayers £2.50.[31] " - think you meant "spent"

Funding allocation and prevalence

• Looks good.

Opposition

• "Arguments made against the practice include that prisoners do not deserve the right to be educated, doing so is being "soft on crime" and is was a waste of taxpayers' " - is was?
• " it faced a backlash from lawmakers and Republicans" - don't think you need the "a" before backlash

References

• Refs 30 ( Simon, p. 66.), and 44 ( Simon, p. 61.) don't actually link to the source.

This looks great! Good work so far. If you're still up for reviewing a GAN I have listed on my userpage, I would greatly appreciate it! ceranthor 15:52, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks again Ceranthor, almost all issues have been addressed and the one that hasn't has been replied to. I'd be happy to review one of your GANs. :) Freikorp (talk) 08:54, 30 May 2018 (UTC)