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Orel Hershiser's scoreless inning streak edit

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This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I have made a lot of changes to address feedback at its original FAC. I am hoping for some criticism to guide me toward FAC2. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 09:05, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think this is at risk of being automatically closed in the next few days. A few people have said that they would be coming to review this. Please don't close this.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:21, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Jim Text much more intelligible to a non-American

  • I'm still confused whether it's inning or innings, they seem to be used interchangeably
An "inning" is singular, "innings" is more than 1. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 20:24, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have been going back and forth on this. I moved the page and am now apt to move it back. The streak describes 59 consecutive scoreless innings. I.e., this is a consecutive scoreless innings streak article. However, I guess when I moved the page to innings I was thinking about Cal Ripken's consecutive games streak, which I think is correctly referred to in plural. However, without the word consecutive for some reason, I am not so sure it should be plural. I think you might talk about Dimaggio's consecutive hits streak, but Dimaggio's hit streak. In fact, I think it is common to say a Player X's ##-game hit streak, in the singular. Maybe I should move the page back to inning. Feedback welcome.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:46, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The streak spanned the 6th inning of an August 30, 1988 game against the Montreal Expos through the 10th inning of the September 28 — spell out sixth and tenth, "through to the tenth..." I would have thought.
  • Hershiser's streak is considered by one commentator to be among the greatest individual streaks in sports and by another to be among the greatest records in baseball history.— clunky, perhaps "commentators have described this streak as...."
  • Padre Benito Santiago — padre is redundant, you've already named the opposition, and I read it as a title at first!
  • pennant race‐ means...?
  • retiring the side in order in his only inning of work— makes no sense even with a "from" after retiring
  • 9-inning shutouts... Then the streak ended with 4 scoreless innings... 7-time...which was 5 fewer than Drysdale had... 20th win—spell out numbers(there are several other low numbers that need spelling later too. Also 22nd, 6th etc)
    • I don't thing twenty-second necessarily needs to be spelled out, I spelled most things under 20 except for #-game lead and some stats (and of course dates).--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:56, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • There was little emphasis on historical context of his streak— missing "the"
  • Upon reaching 40 consecutive innings— missing "his"
  • fortuitous umpire ruling— explanation of what that was?
  • he pitched on three days rest— should that be after three days rest?
    • This is baseball lingo meaning that he pitched, rested for three days and then pitched on the fourth. After might be slightly more grammatical, but on is idiomatic.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 10:02, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Works such as The New York Times... — I don't think papers are ever considered to be "works"

I might have another look if I get time

Comments from Figureskatingfan edit

As per Tony's request, I will PR this article. My initial impressions are the same as they've been for many sports articles: too much sports terminology and concepts that outsiders won't understand. Although I know very little about baseball, sometimes having an uninvolved non-expert is beneficial, since I'm able to look at it with fresh eyes and see things that someone close to the topic often can't. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:22, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for stopping by. I am still a bit bewildered by the responses to this article. I would never go to Theory of relativity and tell the editor to only use terms everyone understands because this is a general encyclopedia. I don't really understand why sports are any different.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:06, 10 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome, but I don't know how to respond, Tony. While it's true that I don't work on science articles, I've had plenty of reviewers in my literature articles tell me to define a term and make it more accessible to non-experts and to a general audience. Take what you can and leave the rest, as they say; it's up to you to decide what feedback to use, of course. There are many more problems with this article than just how the terms are used, though. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 00:58, 10 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Prelude

  • I think that you should include a little biographical information about Hershiser. Perhaps you should put some of the content from "Aftermath" here; it feels like it better belongs here, anyway. Also, how long had he played for the Dodgers and where was he in his career?
  • 2nd sentence: It's grammatically correct, but starting a sentence with "that" is too informal, plus it's unclear whose streak you're talking about. "July 24 up"?
You still haven't fixed the "up" problem; do you mean "broken up on July 24"? Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:08, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:59, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The next sentence has the same issue; which streak are you talking about?
  • 1st sentence, 2nd paragraph: ...getting the opposing side out in order in his only inning of work. Sports-speak; please explain what this means.
It's not perfect, but I think that what you've done is acceptable. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:08, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Following his August 14 outing in which he exited after two innings (his shortest outing since June 8, 1985) trailing the Giants 8–2, he pitched complete games on August 19 (a shutout) and August 24. Please explain what you mean by "exited", "outing", and "trailing", and "shutout". The first phrase may be an incomplete phrase.
  • ...Leary also had a share of another shutout. Again, please explain.
  • 3rd paragraph: make sure that you include Drysdale's full name the first time you mention him in the article's body.
  • I don't think you need to include the dates, and the info about Johnson's streak should be earlier, although if you do that you'd need to restructure the entire paragraph. This is what I'd do with it: "Previously, Walter Johnson of the 1913 Washington Senators had held the record, for 55 2⁄3 innings, and included two relief appearances, which gave him a fractional total. In 1968, Don Drysdale, also of the Dodgers, surpassed Johnson by posting 58 innings in six consecutive nine-inning shutouts between May and June. Drysdale's streak ended with four scoreless innings in a 5-3 victory over Philadelphia on June 8, 1968."

Streak

  • You begin the 1st 2 sentences with "the streak", plus the 2nd sentence is too long and wordy. How about doing this: "It began on August 30 against the Expos, after seven-time All-Star Tim Raines scored with two outs in the 5th inning, and ended on April 5 against the Cincinnati Reds, when Baseball Hall of Famer Barry Larkin scored, with two outs, in the first inning."
I must admit, yours is better than mine! ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:08, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The word "during" appears 17 times in this article. I suggest going through and re-wording, for variety sake. Many times you can just remove the phrase "during the streak", since that's the subject of the article, anyway.
  • During the streak, Hershiser caused opposing teams to leave 30 runners on base, which was five fewer than Drysdale had, according to the Chicago Tribune. Please clarify what you mean by leaving runners on base. What does the "according to" modify; when you put it at the end like this, it seems like it only modifies the final phrase.
  • Next sentence: it sounds like you have two different and conflicting reports. I have an idea how to handle this, but I need the previous issue addressed first.
"Than D had" is informal, and I can now make my suggestion. How about: "During the streak, according to the Chicago Tribune, Hershiser caused opposing teams to leave 30 runners on base; Drysdale, in his streak, left 35. However, USA Today reported that Hershiser left 36 runners on base." Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:08, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:08, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The next 2 sentences are unclear. Did H not throw a sinker during the streak? Is there any way you can briefly explain how he used the splint-finger fastball as a sinker?
    • Both are pitches with downward action as they approach the plate. He apparently is better at throwing the splitter than the sinker and opted for that when his strategic objective was to throw a pitch with downward action.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:28, 10 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I think that this language is necessary. Thanks for answering my question, even though it totally went over my head! ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:08, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1st sentence, 2nd paragraph: "Heralded" is a peacock term. I'm not sure you need to make a distinction between the national and local press, especially since one of the national outlets is The L.A. Times. What does "Cy Young challenger" mean?
  • Final sentence, 2nd paragraph: The information about H's son feels out of place here. I wonder if you should put it earlier, in the "Prelude" section, to give the streak context. Perhaps you can say that H's thoughts were primarily on his son during most of the time period.
My reasoning is that it's background to what was happening. I'd think that putting what was going on in H's personal life was important, but I'll accept your choice. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:08, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hershiser was linked to Drysdale by the sports media after reaching 49 consecutive innings by way of a favorable umpire ruling similar to how Drysdale benefited from an umpire ruling during his streak. A little wordy. How about: "After Hershiser reached 49 consecutive innings because of a favorable umpire ruling, the sports media compared him to Drysdale, who had a similar incident occur during his streak." Was this the first time the media compared H and D? If so, you could add it.
  • Despite the official rule change... Meaning unclear; please explain.
  • I think that even though you link it, you should briefly explain the Cy Young award.
Good, thanks. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:08, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • What's the difference between "the pennant race" and "the division title"?
    • This difference came into being in 1969 when expansion caused the National League and American League to each split into East and West divisions. Once upon a time winning a pennant meant winning either the National or American League regular season championship, which meant a trip to the world series. Teams would fly pennants on their flag poles to signify their championships. So the regular season was a race to win a pennant. Now team compete to win divisions or wild card playoff berths to compete in the post season for the American and National League titles. Let me know what you want me to do on this sentence, given that pennant race is now linked in the LEAD.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:10, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Again, necessary language, so we'll just leave it as is. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:08, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Only when the total reached 49, did Hershiser feel that the record was within reach. Too informal. How about: "When the total reached 49, Hershiser began to feel, for the first time, that the record was within reach."

Stopping here so I can make sure I don't lose any work again. Yes, it's already happened. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:18, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sept. 5 - Why was Perranoski dismayed?

Sept. 10

  • With the win, they held a 5-game lead. I know this sounds lame, but who are you talking about here; who won? You do this often; please go through and make sure that it's clear, please.
  • Should you refer to Fernandez as a "lefty"?
  • On winning 20 games, Hershiser said... Although it's grammatically correct, starting a sentence with a preposition is too informal. Plus, it's a little redundant. How about: Hershiser said, about reaching this accomplishment,..."

Sept. 14

  • Although Drysdale's record was being mentioned after he reached 31 consecutive innings... "Was being mentioned": use of the past possessive is incorrect here; omit the word "being".
  • Orel and wife Jamie, scheduled induced labor for the following day. This is the first time you talk about the birth of H's child in the daily sections. I wonder if you should mention that H was about to be a father earlier, in the prelude. Was this his first child? Was it a difficult pregnancy? Why did they induce labor? Also, the use of the comma is incorrect here.
    • This is common for baseball starting pitchers who work every 5th or 6th day for 6 or 7 months of the year. When a birth is in season they often induce labor sometime after 8 and a half months on an offday when the team is playing at home. The first day after a start gives the pitcher 3 or 4 days when he is often excused to spend most of his time with his wife and newborn. None of this is going to be in sources. BTW, I don't think it needs to be earlier. It is an event that happened between this sections start and the next.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:15, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, thanks. This is fine with me. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:25, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sept. 19

  • Houston's most dangerous threats occurred on Dodger errors:... Please clarify, and use more formal language.
  • Then a Griffin error on a Glenn Davis ground ball put Hershiser's streak in peril. Please re-state; again, too informal.
  • The game marked Hershiser's sixth shutout of the season (fourth consecutive), making him the first Dodger since Drysdale in 1968 to record four consecutive. I think you need to move the parenthetical. Plus, the sentence is incomplete: "four consecutive" what? How about: "The game marked Hershiser's sixth (and fourth) consecutive shutout of the season, making him the first Dodger since Drysdale in 1968 to record four consecutive shutouts."
  • This shutout was wedged between Dodger shutouts by John Tudor with relief from Alejandro Pena on September 18 and Tim Belcher on September 20. Please clarify and make more formal. What does "wedged between" mean? Explain what you mean by "with relief from ...Pena". This sentence makes it seem like Tudor did both shutouts. If he did, you don't need to change anything; if he didn't, I have suggestions to make after you clarify.
The problem with its current wording is that it sounds like Pena relieved Belcher, too. How about: "John Tudor posted one on September 18 with relief from Alejandro Pena; Tim Belcher pitched a shutout on September 20." Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:25, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:11, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1st sentence, 2nd paragraph: Replace "his" with "Hershiser", just in case someone doesn't understand that's who you're talking about.
  • Upon winning that day with his fourth consecutive complete game shutout, Hershiser had reduced the Dodgers' magic number to five over the Cincinnati Reds. Another prepositional phrase. How about: "Hershiser, by winning that day with his fourth consecutive complete game shutout, had reduced the Dodgers' magic number to five over the Cincinnati Reds."

I'll stop here. The prose seems to improve in these dates sections. I'll try and look at more in the next couple of days. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:10, 10 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try and work on some more later today. Tony, I appreciate your patience; I can hear your sighs of frustration and exasperation through my computer screen. ("Ah, why do I have to deal with someone who's so ignorant about baseball!") ;) I know, 'cause I go through the same thing with my Sesame Street articles. Thanks. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:25, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sept. 23

  • 1st sentence, 1st paragraph: Didn't you know? Starting a sentence with a "so" is a "no-no"! ;) I'd like this to be a little more formal, but I need to know some things before I can make a suggestion. What was the customary length of rest between games? Why is H pitching on this day connected with "the rest of the staff"? Wouldn't the other team members play anyway?
    • A pitching rotation involves 5 pitchers. A season is 162 games played over the course of 182 days (including a 3-day all-star break leaving 179 days). Thus over the course of the 26 week schedule teams randomly get a total of 17 days off (almost always Mondays or Thursdays, but since interleague play arose I am not sure if this is always the case anymore) plus the all-star break. These days are sometimes swallowed up by makeup games for rainouts. Let's assume there are no doubleheaders scheduled and no rainouts. A rotation (schedule of pitchers) typically involves the 1-4 positions in the rotation having priority and the 5 position sometimes being given equal standing. In the case where the 5th spot in the rotation gets equal standing (almost never the case) all pitchers get 32 or 33 starts as each position starts in turn every 5th game on a rotating basis. More typically, a rotation will try to get the 1-4 spots extra starts so that they get about 36 starts and the 5th spot gets about 18 starts. The rotation pitches on days in order 1-4 and if there was no rest day in between the starts for the 1st position, the 5th spot starts but if there was a rest day between the starts for the 1st position the 5th guy gives up his start. The 1-4 starters pitch every 5th day.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:44, 15 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • By the way, once upon a time it was not so uncommon to have 4-pitcher rotations and recently some staffs have tried 6-man rotations.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:49, 15 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Between September 23 and October 3 (assuming Hershiser is the #1 pitcher, known as the ace). A normal schedule would have him pitch on the 23rd, 28th and 3rd. If he did not start until the 24th and the playoff started on the 3rd, there would not be enough time for the full rest. Of course this all became moot when, the playoffs were eventually scheduled to start on the 4th.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:44, 15 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have tried to edit this.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:44, 15 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The game marked Hershiser's eighth consecutive complete game and fifteenth of the season and Hershiser's fifth consecutive complete game shutout stretched his consecutive scoreless inning streak to 49. Incomplete sentence. All you need to do to fix it is to insert a comma and the word "which" after "shutout".
  • Here's my ignorance showing again: could you explain the significance of the asterisk?
    • In baseball (and often other sports), saying a record bears an asterisk, means that you broke the record under special circumstances that were likely easier conditions. The most famous asterisk was when Roger Maris hit 61 home runs during a 162-game season, breaking Babe Ruth's record of 60 home runs during a 154-game season. To a researcher like a wikipedian, saying something bears an asterisk, might be tantamount to saying it requires a footnote.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:11, 15 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • With this shutout, Hershiser moved into third on the all-time consecutive scoreless innings list behind Johnson and Drysdale, passing Carl Hubbell and G. Harris "Doc" White who each had streaks of 45 innings on the newly redefined record's list as well as Bob Gibson who had a streak of 47 before the record was redefined. Way too long. How about: "Hershiser's September 23 shutout moved him to third place on the all-time consecutive scoreless innings list, behind Johnson and Drysdale. He also passed Carl Hubbell and G. Harris "Doc" White, who each had streaks of 45 innings on the newly redefined record's list, and Bob Gibson, who had a streak of 47 before the record was redefined."
  • Hershiser joined Drysdale in 1968 and White in 1904 as the only pitchers to throw five consecutive shutouts. This makes it sound like H joined them in those years, and I know that's not what you mean. How about: "Hershiser also became one of three pitchers to throw five consecutive shutouts, joining Drysdale, who did it in 1968 and White, who did it in 1904."
  • His 23 wins were the most by a Dodger since Sandy Koufax had won 27 in 1966. Won 27 what? I know, it's obvious, but we need to be clear. How about: "His 23 wins were the most by a Dodger since Sandy Koufax won 27 games in 1966."
  • Start of 3rd paragraph: I think these sentences are a little wordy. I don't think that you need to say that most sources agree, because you go about stating how they don't. You could remove that sentence and just say, "During the third inning of the September 23 game, according to articles written by ESPN and in the Los Angeles Times, after Jose Uribe..."
  • How did Butler interfere with Griffin?
    • Do we really want to claim to know the details of how he interfered with Griffin if we are not even sure whether he in fact interfered with Griffin or Sax? I don't think any more belongs in the article. However, if he interfered with Griffin, it was by sliding out of the basepath. A typical 4-6-3 double play would involve a shortstop passing over the bag to the 2nd base side and throwing after he passes the bag. Butler would have had to slide toward the shortstop rather than the bag.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:51, 16 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • What do you mean by "contemporaneous sources"?
  • Last sentence, 3rd paragraph: Please clarify. Correct "source", and identify Wendelstedt and Dietz.
  • 4th paragraph, 1st sentence: What does retired the side in order mean?

Sept. 28

  • 3rd paragraph: What does "snapped" mean?
  • Hershiser made it through the tenth inning, with the clinching out being a Keith Moreland flyball caught by right fielder José González. Please clarify, especially "the clinching out being".
  • The last five sentences in the 3rd paragraph all need clarifying. The dramatics line is unnecessary and gets into personal interpretation, doncha think?
  • Nice job with the next paragraph.
  • Hershiser's record was somewhat overlooked at the time, having to compete for fans' attention to the 1988 Summer Olympics and the 1988 National Football League season that was beginning. How about: "Hershiser's record was overlooked because the 1988 Summer Olympics and the start of the 1988 National Football League season occurred at the same time."

Oct. 4

  • In both the third and sixth inning the Mets got two runners on base only to have Hershiser induce an infield groundball. Correct "inning", please. Also, clarify the inducing part.

Okay, I need to stop here. I may have more time tomorrow; if not, perhaps into early next week. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 00:47, 14 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • ...a hit and run play with Keith Hernandez. Could you explain this, or is it one of those technical phrases we need to keep?
  • The Dodgers; bullpen had led the league in saves that year. Incomplete sentence; please fix.
  • The Mets went on to add two more runs on a ball that John Shelby got a glove on, but did not catch on the fly. Please clarify about the glove and the fly. ;)

April 5

  • I notice that this section is about the following year, in which I assume was the following season. Is that because the Oct. 4 game was the last of the 88 season? How early in the 89 season was the April 5 game?
  • His mound opponent was Tom Browning who had pitched a perfect game the last time had faced the Dodgers (September 16, 1988). I think you're missing "he" between "time" and "had".
  • As the leadoff hitter Larkin's chopped a groundball over Hershiser into centerfield. Incomplete sentence, and please explain what you mean by "chopped a groundball".
  • I assume that Benzinger's single ended the streak. Perhaps you should state that, by adding the phrase, "thus ending Hershiser's streak."

Comparisons

  • I was thinking that much of the content here is repetitive, since you mentioned some of it previously, but I think that it's important enough to keep.
  • Because Hershiser did not pitch beyond the first 10 innings of his September 28 start—the game lasted 16 innings—Drysdale maintained the record for consecutive shutouts (6). I don't like starting sentence with a conjunction, so I suggest that you change it so that it's more formal. How about: "Drysdale maintained the record for consecutive shutouts (6) because Hershiser did not pitch beyond the first 10 innings of his September 28 start due to the fact that it lasted 16 innings."

Aftermath

  • I know you disagree, but I still think the content before After the record was broken... in the first paragraph better belongs in the "Prelude" section.
  • 1st sentence, 2nd paragraph: Should there be a number after "Game"?
  • Briefly identify David Cone, please.

Whew, I think I'm finished now. Thanks for your patience, both with how long it's taken me and for your willingness to take my criticism. I'm not going to review your sources, since I think focusing on the prose is enough, but I do have a question. Some of your statements are supported by several sources, sometimes up to five or six. Is that necessary? I always say that if you can support your statement with just one good source (or at the most, 2 or 3), that's enough. I also recommend that you have at least one other editor take another look at your prose, perhaps someone with more sports knowledge, and that you ask someone to look at your sources. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:43, 17 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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