Wikipedia:Peer review/Levantine Arabic/archive1

Levantine Arabic

I've listed this article for peer review because I'm considering a good article nomination but it's the first time I'm doing this on the English Wikipedia. I would like any comment on the overall structure and the content (+ orthography as I'm not a native English speaker). Also: what sections could be added? Is some information missing?

Thanks for any help you can provide, A455bcd9 (talk) 17:24, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

I have started a review of this, it is a very long article so it will take some time. Boynamedsue (talk) 09:18, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

So, I've had a look and the first thing I would say is that it is structurally sound, generally well-written and seems to be complete and almost without bias. Going through I have found quite a few places where it could be improved, in terms of sourcing, language and clarity, I have a long document of proposals for improvement which I will upload here later on.Boynamedsue (talk) 10:12, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Thank you so much! A455bcd9 (talk) 10:48, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

No problem :) Like I said the text is generally good and seems to cover everything, without any extraneous material. As it is a very long article, I have limited my comments to short statements which might lack a little of the delicacy I would normally try to include in my feedback to another user out of politeness. I prioritised time over style, but despite the somewhat brusque tone, I don't think there is a great deal wrong with the text and anything which is not mentioned can be assumed to be ok. Boynamedsue (talk) 11:36, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks @Boynamedsue:! I'm totally fine with the style ;) I solved some of the issues. Regarding the grammar section, I think @SarahFatimaK: can solve them better than I could :)

There are some "citation needed" tags. If we don't manage to find a source, should we delete these sentences? We could add them to the talk page in a new section "Unsourced sentences". Or should we keep them in the article? A455bcd9 (talk) 18:59, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Great, the citation needed tags would probably depend how important what they say is, if cutting it leaves a section too weak you might want to find something different to say there? Look for a good source and see what it is? I'll go through your queries and answer them one at a time next to the questions...Boynamedsue (talk) 19:16, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Boynamedsue:,

FYI: I closed this review yesterday because I considered that we (SarahFatimaK and I) addressed the different issues you identified. Thanks a lot for your review, it was really useful and comprehensive! I nominated the article in the Language and literature category and I mentioned your peer review as a note. Thanks again. A455bcd9 (talk) 07:42, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi A455bcd9, thanks for that I'm really impressed with all the work you have put in, the article looks great. I would just like to draw your attention to one small thing you still need to resolve for the GA. There is a citation needed tag in the naming section, I would imagine it is very easy to resolve as the queried text is "they may also simply call their spoken language "Arabic" (عربي, ʿarabiyy).", but you probably want to fix it before GA. Boynamedsue (talk) 08:27, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Boynamedsue:,

Thanks a lot :)

Yes unfortunately I know, I'm the one who added this tag... I also thought it would be very easy to find an article confirming this (simple and seemingly obvious) information but despite numerous attempts I haven't... If you have any idea where I could find this it would be extremely helpful! A455bcd9 (talk) 08:33, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

I eventually managed to find a source and added it :) A455bcd9 (talk) 10:58, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Proposed improvements

Lede

Need source for “However, with the emergence of social media, attitudes toward Levantine have improved and the amount of written Levantine has significantly increased.”

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 17:59, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Naming

There is a "citation needed tag" which needs resolving.

Classification

Taleb is fringe for linguistics and might be pushing a line designed to place Lebanese outside of Arabic, which somewhat recalls the attempts to argue for Phoenician origins for Maltese and Lebanese based, in reality, purely on shared Christian identities. The comparative illustration is not relevant to the topic, which is the position of Arabic generally within Semitic. I'd find a linguist who makes the same point or cut Taleb.

 Done Removed Taleb's mention. A455bcd9 (talk) 17:55, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Geographical distribution and varieties

“The urban dialects of the main cities (such as Damascus, Beirut, and Jerusalem) have much more in common than the rural and urban dialects inside a given country.” This is unclear, more in common with what? what exactly is the sentence saying about the relationships between “the rural and urban dialects inside a given country”. Also, is the whole first paragraph supported by Stowasser 2004? It maybe needs more exact sourcing for each sentence.

Not done for now This is actually almost a copy/paste from Stowasser, you can see a preview here (Google Preview button on the left), page xiii. I understand in this sentence (and it's the reality of the language) that the language spoken in Damascus is closer to the language spoken in Jerusalem in terms of grammar, lexicon, and phonology than the language spoken in the villages near Damascus. Do you think it needs to be rephrased? A455bcd9 (talk) 18:13, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I would go for something like "The Urban dialects of the main cities (such as Damascus, Beirut, and Jerusalem) have much more in common with each other than they do with the rural dialects of their respective countries." As it is now there is lots of ambiguity about what is similar to what.Boynamedsue (talk) 19:26, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 20:26, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

North Levantine

"North Levantine stems from the north in Turkey," > "North Levantine extends from Turkey in the north,"

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 18:13, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

"Gilit Mesopotamian Arabic" > Gilit is not explained, what is it? There should be at the very least a link.

 Done I removed "Gilit". A455bcd9 (talk) 18:13, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

"There's also the emergence of a national variety of the colloquial that may be called "common Syrian Arabic”" > "A national variety of colloquial Arabic which might be called “common Syrian Arabic” is emerging." (contraction and phrasing wrong)

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 18:13, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

“This prestige dialect is the most widely documented and described Levantine variety." > Which variety, the standard based on Damascus speech or “Common Syrian Arabic”? Or are they the same?

 Done I moved the sentence before, as it related to Damascus only. A455bcd9 (talk) 18:13, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

“The Beiruti dialect is well accepted.” > Which aspect of Beiruti is well accepted, its existence?

Not done for now This is a copy/paste from the source: "Beiruti dialect well accepted.". What should we do? A455bcd9 (talk) 18:13, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, if it's ethnologue it means the existence is well accepted. I'd maybe find a better source for that section or simply include it as one of the list of Lebanese varieties without comment. Boynamedsue (talk) 19:29, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 20:36, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

“There are also the following dialects” > Perhaps it is better to say which scholars accept the existence of these dialects, is it also necessary to contrast the different categorisations of different scholars? Not sure myself, but worth thinking about.

Not sure. I added "According to Ethnologue" as it was the source. Is it okay? (I don't know any other source about dialects of Lebanese. And I don't think it's a controversial point.) A455bcd9 (talk) 18:13, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

ethnologue is ok, but sometimes has some funny ideas, I'd search in French, Arabic and English for "Lebanese dialectology" and similar. If you get nothing better, just leave it as it is.Boynamedsue (talk) 19:31, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I quickly checked and didn't find any other academic source. I found a website with some Lebanese dialects, I added it. A455bcd9 (talk) 21:16, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

“There is an emerging "Standard Lebanese Arabic", mix of Beiruti Arabic and Jabale Arabic, the language of the mountain." > should be “a mix” but may be better to say “which combines features of”, is “the mountain” standard use in modern English to describe Mount Lebanon? If not just use “Mount Lebanon”.

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 18:13, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

South Levantine

“The language is also spoken in the HaZafon district of Israel and central district of Israel, south of Lebanon," > Isn’t all of Israel south of Lebanon? Redundancy. Shouldn’t repeat "district" and "Israel", maybe “in the HaZafon and central districts of Israel.”, the sentence is not so clear it needs a little work.

 Done I removed the mention of central districts & south of Lebanon as it was not mentioned in the source (Ethnologue). So the sentence is now simpler. I consider it's done but let me know if you think it still needs to be improved. A455bcd9 (talk) 18:29, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

“The transition to Egyptian in the south via the Negev and Sinai Peninsula, where Northwest Arabian Arabic is spoken and then the dialect of Sharqia Governorate, was described by de Jong in 1999.” > The sentence is a bit of a mess, needs a re-write. You need to state what that transition is rather than imply it, maybe beginning "Levantine varieties transition into Egyptian Arabic in the South...". Sentence needs work, whatever.

Not done for now, I checked the source and I don't understand that it says this... A455bcd9 (talk) 18:53, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Do you mean the source doesn't seem to support the statement in the text? Boynamedsue (talk) 19:33, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done, I found the source and simplified the sentence. A455bcd9 (talk) 15:54, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

“In this direction, the Egyptian city of Arish is the last one to display proper Levantine features” > “proper" = wrong word, how Levantine is Arish? Is it Egyptian with a little Levantine, or the reverse? This sentence does not tell us that, it should do.

Not done for now, I checked the source and I don't understand that it says this... A455bcd9 (talk) 18:53, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done I removed the sentence as I couldn't find any source. A455bcd9 (talk) 16:20, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

“In a similar manner, the region of el-Karak announces Hejazi Arabic." > “announces” wrong word, the correct way to write it would depend on what degree of Levantine influence is noted.

Not done for now, I checked the source and I don't understand that it says this... A455bcd9 (talk) 18:53, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done Removed the sentence as I couldn't find any source. A455bcd9 (talk) 16:21, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Speakers by country

“For instance in Brazil, where there are 7 million of Lebanese Brazilians, usage of Levantine Arabic varies in native and heritage speakers, with evidence of gradual disuse in third-generation Lebanese Brazilians: 100% of first-generation Lebanese Brazilians declare being able to speak Lebanese, while only 11% of third-generation Lebanese Brazilians do so”

shouldn’t use “of” with million

“don't speak Levantine anymore” > “have ceased to use the language.”

Sentence has too many clauses, split into two.

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 18:33, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

History

“The homeland of Arabic is the Arabian Peninsula and the Syrian steppe.” Very short sentence that is not connected with discourse markers, doesn't quite seem to fit with what is around it.

Not done for now A455bcd9 (talk) 20:56, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done removed A455bcd9 (talk) 07:37, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

“has been attested” > was attested

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 20:56, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Whole first paragraph lacks sources.

Not done for now A455bcd9 (talk) 20:56, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

There is one source for the whole paragraph =>  Done A455bcd9 (talk) 07:38, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Contact with Aramaic

There is a citation needed tag which needs resolving.

 Done Removed the sentence as it was not related directly to the subject and not sourced. A455bcd9 (talk) 06:45, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

"once have evolved" > "evolved"

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 18:52, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Delete" “,the supplanting language of Palestinian Aramaic dialects,”, not necessary as explained previously and obvious from context.

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 18:52, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Spread of old Hijazi

QCT > This is not defined or linked.

 Done I added a link to Old Hijazi Arabic and removed the mention of QCT because it is cited and explained in the Old Hijazi article (Old Hijazi "is the variety thought to underlie the Quranic Consonantal Text (QCT)") A455bcd9 (talk) 18:37, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Diglossia

“Second, because Classical Arabic[c] being the language of the Quran, it is believed to be pure and everlasting, and Islamic religious ideology considers vernaculars to be inferior.” > “being” should be “is”, also, are this sentence and the one before supported by sources? If so they should be linked after each statement, not just at the end of the paragraph.

 Question: I fixed being/is. The whole paragraph is supported by the source at the end (name="Mahajna"). Should I add this reference after each sentence in the paragraph? A455bcd9 (talk) 18:39, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I would do in this case, just to show all the arguments come from the same place. It's probably optional tbh.Boynamedsue (talk) 19:35, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 20:48, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Education

The section is very brief and should be expanded with more information about Levantine rather than other languages.

 Question: I moved the sentence "In the Levant, MSA is the only variety that is taught in schools as "Arabic," Levantine is not taught. In institutions of higher education, it is used as a medium of instruction in the social sciences and humanities, whereas in most universities, English or French are used in the applied and medical sciences." which was in the "diglossia" part to this "Education" section as an introduction of the section. Then, details are given for each country about other languages of instruction (and other second language). Levantine is never taught but it's sometimes unofficially used by teachers. However, I only found one source mentioning this, for Syria ("Teachers are obliged to speak only MSA with their pupils. In practice, they only do so partly."). Do you think it still needs improvement? A455bcd9 (talk) 18:45, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I'd add the source and comment about Syria. The move is fine. It's difficult as it's an important topic that is probably under-researched. You can only add what can be found. --Boynamedsue (talk) 19:37, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 20:39, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Phonology

Well-written, but is there enough accounting for geographical variation there? Perhaps a more comprehensive table showing geographical variants might be useful, though I am not an expert so I couldn’t definitively say this is essential.

The differences in consonants are mainly rural vs urban and male vs female. Both are mentioned in the "Socio-phonetics" subsection. The voweling is regional and the North Levantine variant is mentioned in the "Vowels" subsection. So I think this is  Done. A455bcd9 (talk) 11:41, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Orthography

All excellent, no obvious gaps.

Definiteness

Citation needed tag has to be resolved,

 Done removed the sentence, unsourced + I found a source saying the opposite. A455bcd9 (talk) 06:53, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Grammar

Nouns

The text makes it seem like genitive relationships between two definite nouns is impossible e.g. "the book of the man", is this correct? Or is it merely a description of the idafah system which does exclude two definite nouns being in genitive relationship?

 Done by SarahFatimaK :) A455bcd9 (talk) 14:54, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Superlative and comparative

Citation needed tag has to be resolved

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 06:41, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Regular verb conjugation

2 citation needed tags have to be resolved.

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 11:30, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Future

Should have example sentence.

 Done examples added SarahFatimaK (talk) 13:54, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

present continuous

Should have example sentence.

 Done SarahFatimaK (talk) 19:26, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

To want

Should have example sentence.

 Done SarahFatimaK (talk) 12:00, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Negation

Again, I'd have examples, perhaps in this one showing the different types of negation (la excepted) in a table.

 Done by Sarah A455bcd9 (talk) 11:30, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Vocabulary (overview)

“However, it also includes layers of ancient indigenous languages: Canaanite, classical Hebrew (Biblical Hebrew and Mishnaic Hebrew), Aramaic (particularly Western Aramaic), Persian, Greek, and Latin. After the Arab conquest of the Levant in the 7th century, linguistically and religiously, the area became a Muslim Arab region, and Aramaic survived only among Christian minorities, Jews, and Mandaeans. Moreover, since the early modern period, it has borrowed from Turkish and European languages, mainly English, French, German, and Italian" > We need sources for each sentence here, this might necessitate a slight rewrite if you want to be careful to avoid the possibility of WP:OR.

 Question: It comes from this source (and the "Lexicon" section in Brustad and Zuniga has a similar sentence: "As one would expect from its long history at an important geopolitical crossroad, the LA lexicon has also accumulated loan words from other languages. Aramaic, Italian, French, Turkish, Greek, Persian and English have all contributed.") So is it okay? A455bcd9 (talk) 18:49, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I would say every sentence needs as citation or two, supporting the influence of every language mentioned in the text. It's just because you get tonnes of listy sentences in wikipedia which have sources which only support part of the list (it happens because people just drop by and add words to sentences which stay there for years). Satisfy yourself that every language mentionedis supported by a sourceBoynamedsue (talk) 19:40, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 20:42, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Boynamedsue (talk) 11:36, 24 July 2021 (UTC)