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Wikipedia:Peer review/Claude Nicolas Ledoux/archive1

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Claude Nicolas Ledoux edit

The last article I brought here got zero reviews, except the automated one :-( What I have done with this article is translated the version from fr:, added a public domain portrait, and trimmed some of the images. Any comments, criticisms or improvements would be appreciated. DVD+ R/W 07:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The most obvious thing is the vast number of red links. You need to consider whether each of them are worthy of their own article (I'm not certain whether notability on French WP should correspond to En). If they are, could you try and start some of them, even if it's just a stub. The end sections need to be changed to correspond with WP:LAYOUT. Some pieces of information aren't in standard places (e.g. the birth/death place in the brackets straight after the title) - compare with a biographical FA to standardise. The French quotes aren't particularly useful if one does not speak French. There don't seem to be many citations - you can cite pages from the books used in the bibliography if you have them. Trebor 22:04, 6 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Trebor, I will attend to these and any other points throughout the week. DVD+ R/W 09:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Andy, I really like the bot review, I wish it could edit all of the suggestions into the articles ;-) DVD+ R/W 09:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think the article is a great addition to en WP. It needs to be condensed. To accomplish this, sub articles on the saltworks, the theater and the ferme generale might be considered. Why isn't there an article link to utopianism (architecture)? I strongly recommend this. Agree with comments about too many red links, such as street names. These probably should not even be in the article (on the English site) and certainly not as seperate articles. I would especially not carry over any red links that are also red in the French WP. In places, I felt the french terms needed to be defined within the text upon the first occurence, such as Ancien Regime. Glenn4pr 10:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The saltworks and ferme generale already have articles. I plan on expanding the saltworks one. There is no link to utopianism (architecture) because there isn't an article there, or at utopian architecture. Thanks for your comments, I will edit them into the article soon. I'm on my way over to your Peer Review now by the way. DVD+ R/W 16:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Very comprehensive article - I've made some minor prose comments below.

  1. "Making frequent visits into Franche-Comté because of its functions, Ledoux was chosen to build the theatre of Besançon." - social functions or his work?
    I think fonctions was used to mean function, job, office, post, capacity, position. Franche-Comté had business opportunities for Ledoux. DVD+ R/W 22:29, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. "With the aid of the machinist Dart de Bosco, a student of Giovanni Niccolo Servandoni, Ledoux expanded the Cage de scène, [giving it gave a great volume] with all the most modern improvements." - needs sorting
    How about, "With the aid of the machinist Dart de Bosco, a student of Giovanni Niccolo Servandoni, Ledoux expanded the volume of the Cage de scène, and added all the most modern improvements." ? DVD+ R/W 22:29, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. "The building was inaugurated in 1784 and was recieved with praise" - presumably by critics, the public or the client?
    If you don't think it was praised, I could try to find a citation for that. DVD+ R/W 22:29, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. "Though the spectacular project that he conceived for the Palais de Justice and the prison of Aix-en-Provence was accepted, afterwards came many difficulties with the beginning of the executions in 1786." the 'afterwards' jars - I think the sentence needs a rewrite.
    How about, "Though the spectacular project that he conceived for the Palais de Justice and the prison of Aix-en-Provence was accepted, with the beginning of the executions in 1786 came many difficulties." ? DVD+ R/W 22:29, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. "the cars penetrated through the interior of the hotel in a circular passage and the central salon, also circular, had in its center a rock wrapped in a colonnade" - Carts in the 1780's? carriages perhaps.
    Sure. From Car (disambiguation) the archaic form of car is chariot, cart, carriage. But this can easily be changed to one of the others if it is confusing. DVD+ R/W 22:29, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. "fifty [barriers to access] were built between 1785 and 1788" - better phrase needed here
    How about, "fifty barriers were built between 1785 and 1788" ? Its even simpler with access removed. They were barriers after all. DVD+ R/W 22:29, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  7. "The time was then returning to the antique, to the distinction and the examination, of the taste for the "rustic" style" - better as, I think, "But the taste of the time was returning to the antique, to the distinction and the examination and towards a more "rustic style" - I'm stll not sure what the subject of the distinctions and examinations are, so it might be better to be more explicit.
    I can't find this in the article right now, but remember stumbling on it myself. DVD+ R/W 22:29, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was struck when reading the lead that this was perhaps the first example I've read of Architectural determinsim [1] - which we don't have a wiki article for - the nearest I can find is Environmental determinism - I don't know enough about the subject to say whether or not Ledoux is in anyway related to this certainly 20th century thinking. --Mcginnly | Natter 23:29, 11 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't know either, I've never heard of arcitectural determinism. DVD+ R/W 22:29, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I started to edit this and make inline coments, but then stopped as it dawned on me That while is very interesting and comprehensive, it reads like a translation, I think it now need to be completely re-written, incorporating all the facts that are there. No condensing, or too much deleting. I don't like the way work and personal life are mixed in the same sections. It reminds me very much of the early history of Sanssouci which had been admirably and faithfully translated from the German, but had to be ripped apart and put back together again, by someone thinking in English to make it readable and concise to English ears. Sorry to be blunt. I think DVD R W you have now to reduce the facts to basics, then write the page yourself in your own words using those same facts, but also look him up on some internet sites and architectural books and add a bit of your own originality to it. Try to look at it again with fresh eyes, you have probably studied the text as you translated and fallen into French mode. Giano 13:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good to hear from the maestro :-) Feel free to write and edit the article as much as you want - your English ears are probably better than mine. I will also look over Sanssouci, and Vanbrugh again, any more that you'd recommend? I still need a break from this to be able to see it with fresh eyes. I don't mind substantially rewriting it, but can't right now, I have a few more translations to do - including the rest of the saltworks article. I'll also do some proper research when I'm ready, but I trust the facts included by Justelipse (who wrote the fr: version). I know that I need to use inline cites and will both ask Justelipse for some and find some myself, when I start to add my own originality (of course not orignal research). Which sections have work and personal life unduly mixed? DVD+ R/W 04:54, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Definitely needs more inline citations. - Jmabel | Talk 23:25, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. DVD+ R/W 07:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • General remark on translating from the French Wikipedia: beware the florid and vacuous: e.g. "he created a singular architectonic order, a new column formed of alternating cylindrical and cubic stones superimposed for their plastic effect." I have no idea what this means; I suspect it was equally obscure in the French original - Jmabel | Talk 23:34, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Funny, in fr:autoportrait, I agree. But this passage makes sense to me (maybe I have read too much French writing on architecture though). See Image:Koenigliche Saline in Arc-et-Senans Bild1 800px.jpg, I think this is what is being described here. The columns are a unique architectonic order, compare with Doric order or Solomonic column, or look through architectural orders. The columns described do alternate cylindrical and cubic stones and, as far as I know, this is singular or unique. The term "plastic effect", is something I hear referring to works by Le Corbusier, or often other modernists to mean sculptural or three dimensional - see plastic arts. I'm not sure how else to describe this. I trust you to re-write this or anything else to make it sound better. DVD+ R/W 07:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • And, in a few places, I suspect some mistranslations: "obtained on an idea from the chemist and fermier général Antoine Lavoisier". "obtained on an idea" isn't English. - Jmabel | Talk 23:36, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I probably did mistranslate in some places. As for that part, it was "obtint, sur une idée". How about, "The chemist and fermier général Antoine Lavoisier made the suggestion to the Controller-General of Finances Charles Alexandre de Calonne, of drawing a barrier around Paris..." ? DVD+ R/W 07:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Much better. - Jmabel | Talk 00:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Deserves a lot more links for people, places, and architectural terms. I've added a few. - Jmabel | Talk 23:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, and add more if you want. Most of the redlinks should go though, right? DVD+ R/W 07:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redlinks are good if they indicate articles we need. - Jmabel | Talk 00:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi dvdrw! I said I'd comment, and I did start to write some suggestions, only to discover that they had been all taken care of while I typed—I think the article is in too much flux right now for me to comment usefully. I may be back when it's more stable, if there's still any need by then, for it's no doubt in a course of dramatic improvement! Bishonen | talk 15:06, 13 November 2006 (UTC).[reply]
  • I've made some alterations to the first few paragraphs but I am painfully slow. DVD+ R/W you had better have a look and I see if I have correctly interpreted the Salt Works first paragraph. It's not too clear exactly what the cave is , and what the whole scheme is about, I may have the wrong end of the stick completely. Half the red links (IMO) could go, they are unlikely ever to be written. There is also a lot of surplus information. sort of bracketed information on people one has never heard of and is never likely to hear of. I'll do some more paragraphs later (unless someone beats me to it!) then when it is more understandable perhaps it can then have real thorough copy edit, perhaps rearranging facts a little more and defining more clearly what is actually going on there in the various buildings. I think at the moment one needs to have a pretty good knowledge of architecture to understand that, also I think the original French author has used the wrong architectural terms in some places - peristyle for portico etc. never mind we shall get there. Well done though It was a mammoth translation work though - well done. I'm sure it will be a FA - eventually. Giano 17:25, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again for all the editing, I found a couple of references today and leads on a couple more. When you want to ask for more use {{cn}}, and I'll try to find them. I also changed your translation of L'Architecture considérée sous le rapport de l'art, des mœurs et de la législation. Yours was fine, but I found examples of this translated elsewhere - where it seemed to me to be more direct, and also an established title, maybe the title that it was published as in English before. Yes, you were right about peristyle and portico. See Image:Chaux portal.JPG, behind the portico I think it shows the cave that is mentioned. I still don't know so much about the saltworks or the city plan for Chaux, but will translate that article soon and research more. I'm still not sure what to make of the terms I hear about him: visionary, megalomaniac, utopian, but am fascinated by the drawings, most of which are at the Commons. Again thank you, and by all means, work on this as much as it keeps your interest. DVD+ R/W 06:11, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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