Wikipedia:Peer review/Circumcision/archive1

Circumcision

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review to get feedback for general improvement with an eye toward FA. in preparation for GA nomination It's GA nominated now

Thanks, Zad68 21:20, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Casliber

Some notes below: Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:23, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

• Ensure that specific terms are linked at first instance, and not linked more than once in the body of the text (i.e. do not count the lead)

• Bah, I had intended to go through and review and fix the wililinks, but forgot. I will do this, sorry about that. Zad68 03:54, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
•  Done feel free to point out where I've missed any... Zad68 20:55, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

• There are just a few left over, try User:Ucucha/duplinks to spot them. Biosthmors (talk) 21:59, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

•  Fixed What a useful tool!! Sometimes it makes me angry that there are all these secret tools floating around out there and you just have to stumble across them to find them! Zad68 15:02, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

• Very useful! I happened to find out about it during the 3rd peer review of DVT. Biosthmors (talk) 20:13, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

• An analysis of study data found "some evidence" of an association between adult circumcision and an increased risk of invasive penile cancer - some evidence in quotation marks looks to me sarcastic. To avoid paraphrasing try and reword what the article says. i.e avoid quotation marks if possible

•  Done Zad68 19:47, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

• Some discussion in prevalence on why rates are different between (say) the USA and Canada. Rates have also fluctuated over the past few decades. If there are any sources discussing this then that would be good to insert.

• This is touched on in history and a little elsewhere... let me know if you still think it's a serious impediment to GA after reading the whole thing, but will clear that up for FA. Zad68 20:12, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

• I guess I think of the Big Picture in that trying to make the article as buffed as possible is prudent if FA is the ultimate target. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:18, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

•  In progress OK, on it... Zad68 20:20, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

More later.

From Biosthmors

• In Indications and contraindications, can "needed in the future to effect a repair" --> "desired for a surgical procedure"? The current wording seems to imply ambiguous genitalia are prone to break and need a fix. Is that true? Biosthmors (talk) 22:03, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

• Let's try "as the foreskin may be needed for reconstructive surgery"? Zad68 02:56, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

• Better. Biosthmors (talk) 20:16, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

•  Done Zad68 20:22, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

• In the lead, should "cost-effective in sub-Saharan Africa" be "cost-effective to prevent HIV in sub-Saharan Africa", to specify what it's good at? Biosthmors (talk) 22:06, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

• Let's try "cost-effective against HIV"? Zad68 02:56, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

• That still seems too vague for my tastes (but whatever, this isn't a FAC that is supposed to have brilliant prose yet). Biosthmors (talk) 20:16, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

• Hmm "prevent HIV" isn't supported by sources as circ reduces the risk rate of but doesn't prevent transmission... "against HIV" is general enough to be in line with sources and not give the impression circ prevents HIV, and it's wording terse enough to be appropriate for the lead. If that's not a convincing enough argument, let me know, I'll think of something better... maybe Casliber can break the tie? Zad68 20:22, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Link to notes from SandyGeorgia

• FYI, User:SandyGeorgia also took a quick peek through the article, her comments are archived here. Zad68 14:48, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Mark Arsten's comments

• Comments: I'll try to post some comments here and do some copyediting. Overall this looks pretty good.
• Check for compliance with MOS:CAPTION, specifically the bit about complete sentences.

• I think I did this? If it's still not right can you let me know specifics... Zad68 18:23, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

• You might want to double check for consistent use of the serial comma.

•  Done

• Also, check year abbreviations against MOS:YEAR.

•  Done

• "For infant circumcision, devices such as the Gomco clamp, Plastibell, and Mogen clamp are commonly used.[5] With these devices," You might want to avoid repeating "devices" like this, maybe use a different word for one.

• ? "Devices" is used repeatedly for clarity and continuity... is it really worth it here to vary the wording at the possible expense of clarity/explicitness?

• Well, if you can find a good way to avoid it, I suggest doing so. It's not a big deal though, more of a FA thing than a GA thing. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:22, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• "(The model for these images has shaved the pubic hair.)" I'm not sure this note is needed, since the reader will likely realize that.

•  Done

• "The WHO and the Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS (UNAIDS) stated that male circumcision is an efficacious intervention for HIV prevention, but should be carried out by well trained medical professionals and under conditions of informed consent.[1][24][38] Circumcision has been judged to be a cost-effective method to reduce the spread of HIV in a population,[1][39] though not necessarily more cost-effective than condoms.[1] The joint WHO/UNAIDS recommendation also notes that circumcision only provides partial protection from HIV and should never replace known methods of HIV prevention." You switch tenses here, might want to standardize.

•  Done Think I got it

• "Circumcision has been judged to be a cost-effective method to reduce the spread of HIV in a population" I'd change this to avoid the passive here.

•  Done

• Just a thought, but for "A Cochrane meta-analysis of studies done on sexually active men in Africa", "A review of literature worldwide found circumcisions" & "A meta-analysis of data from fifteen observational studies" you might want to note which years these were carried out (i.e. A 2010 meta-analysis).

•  Done

• "A randomized controlled trial in Uganda found that male circumcision did not reduce male-to-female transmission of HIV," Might want to double-check that you're MEDRS compliant here, in terms of primary/secondary sources.

•  Done inadequate source removed, content revised to use newer sources

• "Among men who have sex with men, reviews have found insufficient evidence of an effect against sexually transmitted infections other than HIV" Insufficient for what?

• ? not sure why this is unclear, can you explain?

• I think maybe you should use a word other than "insufficient" here. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:22, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

•  Done

• "The foreskin is opened via the preputial orifice to reveal the glans underneath and ensure it is normal" Perhaps you should note who is verifying its normality, or put something like "allowing its normality to be verified". Not sure.

•  Done I changed this whole bit from passive to active, "The circumcision practitioner opens the foreskin..."

• "The circumcision procedure causes pain,[5] and painful procedures have been shown to cause an increase in pain response in infants with later painful procedures" Is there a good way to cut down on the repetition of "pain" here?

•  Done I just removed the "and painful procedures..." clause, it was unnecessary

• "While most HPV infections cause no symptoms" would "While most HPV infections are asymptomatic" be an improvement here?

•  Done

• That's all I have for now, I'll try to return with more later. Mark Arsten (talk) 23:38, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks very much Mark! I'll get to work. Zad68 05:12, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

• Ok, finally finished my read-through. I'll post the rest of my comments in the next couple days.
• "Medical organization such as the BMA state" & " Even the KNMG," What are the BMA and KNMG? I'd recommend something like "The British Medical Association (BMA)" on first occurrence then just BMA on second.

•  Done

• "As these bacteria are a risk factor for UTIs, circumcision is thought to reduce the risk of UTIs " I'd prefer to avoid the passive here.

•  Done

• In "Adverse effects" you briefly mention psychological risks. Could you go into any more detail about what the purported psychological harm would be?

•  Done in that the mention has been removed. I've been scouring sources trying to dig up more information on this but haven't found anything useful, the only thing the few secondary sources that do mention this say is the possibility of "psychological risks" with no detail. The BMA sources are the only peer-reviewed sources that seem to be making this "psychological risks" point, but no detail is provided. I think they might be pointing to some advice I've seen somewhere that circumcision is to be avoided during the phallic stage due to concerns over castration anxiety but I have not seen this repeated in any WP:MEDRS-compliant sources. I have also found sources stating that there are psychological concerns over not circumcizing for certain religious, cultural and ethnic groups, e.g. Muslim boys might endure psychological trauma if they are not circumcised due to social and religious pressures. Again I haven't found suitable sources to put this in the article yet, and as it's only mentioned briefly and only in a minority of sources, I'm taking it out until such time as it can be sourced properly. Zad68 21:23, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

• Ok, I was curious about the Freudian perspective, but perhaps that's too fringe for the main article on circumcision. Might fit in an article on Freudian beliefs though, I suppose. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:22, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• "The British Medical Association (2006) state that circumcision has psychological risks.[29] Hirji et al. (2005) state" Also, some repetition here, try to avoid repeating "state" twice like this.

•  Done as removed per explanation in previous point.

• I'd suggest re-considering the paragraph breaks in the Prevalence section.

•  Done

• You might want to note Grafton Elliot Smith and Peter Charles Remondino's qualifications (are they doctors, historians?)

•  Done

• "Less verifiable evidence exists for the history of circumcision among the Aboriginal Australians and Polynesians" Less than what?

•  Done

• "the circumcision of Abraham and Abraham's relatives and slaves, making Abraham the first named individual" Can you avoid the repetition of "Abraham" like this?

•  Done

• "For the Jews of the time, circumcision wasn't" Just a reminder, you're not supposed to use contractions.

•  Done somebody got to this one before I did!

• "Circumcision was thought to prevent or cure an enormous and wide-ranging array of medical problems and social ills, including masturbation (considered by the Victorians to be an enormous problem)" Some repetition of "enormous" here.

•  Done

• "Circumcision was thought to ameliorate" & " Circumcision was thought to prevent or cure" I'd suggest avoiding the passive here.

•  Done much better now with a rewrite of the end of that paragraph

• "Among these groups, even when circumcision is done for reasons of tradition, it is now often done in a hospital setting" & "make up the majority of procedures performed today" You should try to avoid "now" and "today" and use more specific terms.

•  Done

Mark Arsten (talk) 19:53, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

• Excellent comments, keep 'em coming! I have actually already been working on your first round of comments and will be updating today based on them. Appreciate it! Zad68 20:02, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
• Finished a bunch today, I'd love to have more. Zad68 21:23, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

• Sorry for the delay, I'll try to put up some more comments soon. Mark Arsten (talk) 21:33, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

• "the foreskin was seen as harboring infection-causing smegma." This is the first we've heard of smegma, perhaps a brief explanation would be helpful?

•  Done

• "There is also evidence that circumcision was practiced in the Americas, but little detail is available about its history." Practiced in the Americas when?

•  Not done The sources don't say so I can't specify :( ... although in detail section it is mentioned Columbus found it in practice by the native Americans, that's all I've got.

• "the sun god Ra was described as having circumcised himself." I'd suggest avoiding the passive here.

•  Done

• "Abraham's descendants are commanded to circumcise their sons on the eighth day of life." I'd suggest specifying that it's the eighth day after birth here.

•  Not done "Eighth day of life" is a specific religious injunction that can't be reword in that way

• "Due to the HIV/AIDS epidemic there, sub-Saharan Africa is a special case." I'd note the region before referring to it as "there".

•  Done by you

• "Alexander the Great conquered the Middle East in the 4th century BCE, and in the following centuries came ancient Greek culture and values." Might want to specify that Greek culture came to the Middle East.

•  Done

• I'm wondering if you could say any more about the adoption of circumcision by Islam, specifically, when did they adopt it? While Muhammad was alive? Within a generation or so?

•  Done added everything the sources provide... I don't have dates or generations, but I did add that the tradition was started with Muhammad directly, which is all the sources say

• "the Jews "having settled there after one of the many expulsions from European countries, the Moors settling in North Africa or fleeing from Spain in 1492."" I'd suggest paraphrasing this quote.
• I feel like the section on Christianity kind of jumps around, could it be expanded/summarized a bit better?
• If you can, try to cut down on the repetition of the word "circumcision". Some of it is impossible to get away from, but see what you can do.
• The last paragraph of Ethical and legal issues uses two sources might have WP:INTEGRITY issues.
• "The mitigating effect circumcision has on the risk factor introduced by the possibility of phimosis is secondary, in that the removal of the foreskin eliminates the possibility of phimosis." I find this sentence somewhat confusing.
• Check for tense consistency and overuse of "estimates" in the Prevalence section. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:22, 25 January 2013 (UTC)