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Wikipedia:Peer review/Chris Young (pitcher)/archive1

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Chris Young (pitcher) edit

I put this up for peer review a few weeks ago and was encouraged to expand the article. I have now and would like feedback before submitting for WP:FAC. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 17:48, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Here are the changes since the last comment on the original peer review.TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 18:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Extraneous information edit

Expanding the article is fine, but I think the pendulum may have swung too far in the other direction. There can be too much information, especially when it becomes as esoteric as it can become in this article. The article (as about 90% of those on WP) also has a current day bias. I think the 2007 section discusses half of his starts this season.

I am not trying to beat you up here. And I am sure that lots of the obscure stuff is not all your doing. But at some point, reading an article becomes sort of unbearable if you have to sit for a moment and think about whether some random statistic is actually relevant.

But as to some specifics:

  • Young took a no-hitter into the sixth inning of his 2nd Triple-A start on August 2, 2004 against the Sacramento River Cats.
  • Other Princeton baseball players who played in the major leagues include Moe Berg, Charlie Caldwell, and John Easton.[32] The other Ivy League players to have played for the Texas Rangers are Pete Broberg (Dartmouth College) and Doug Glanville (University of Pennsylvania). OK that's good, but is it necessary?
  • This was the first Ranger 1-0 victory since August 25, 2000 against the Toronto Blue Jays,[43] a stretch of 669 games.[24]. The club went 5-2 in his brief 2004 stint with the club. How important is that to the article. Its fun to think that the team went 5-2 with him on the team, but I cannot believe that his mere presence is correlated with victory
  • May included his season high 13.2 scoreless innings recorded in May 3 - May 9, 2005. Is this all that impressive? A lot of guys throw 13 scoreless innings
  • Young's closest no-hitter was 5.2 innings of hitless pitching against the Houston Astros before allowing a Craig Biggio single in the sixth inning on June 25, 2007 at Houston. About a thousand other guys have taken no-hitters into the sixth inning. Is that impressive or notable
  • He went 3-1, 2.59 over 24.1 IP in four starts in interleague play giving him the 10th-best (tied) interleague ERA in the American League. 10th best?
  • Young, the former Princeton Tiger athlete, started seven games alongside former University of Pennsylvania infielder Mark DeRosa making them the second Ivy League tandem in the last 50 years to start for the same team, the other being Ron Darling (Yale University) and Bill Almon (Brown University) of the 1987 New York Mets. I think the Ron Darling part is unecessary.
  • Allie Reynolds set the record at 25 straight road starts spanning the 1948 and 1949 seasons that Russ Meyer almost matched with his 24 straight road contests spanning the 1953 and 1954 seasons. OK, Young had a great road stretch. Probably enough to mention that it was the last time since Allie Reynolds and move on
  • This would have been the first no-hitter in San Diego Padres history.[62] It was the first time a Padre had taken a no hitter into the ninth inning since Andy Ashby on September 5, 1997 vs. the Atlanta Braves (8.0 innings). The Padres are joined by the New York Mets, Colorado Rockies and Tampa Bay Devil Rays as the only franchises who have never pitched no-hitters. The last part is irrelevant to Chris Young
  • During Young's next start on June 4, 2006 at Pittsburgh he did not allow a hit for the first 5 1/3 innings,[68][69] making him one of only two pitchers (Steve Trachsel—June 20–25, 2002)[70][71] to have consecutive starts with at least five hitless innings since the 2000 season. this may be one of the most obscure statistics I have ever seen
  • He pitched 6 2/3rds shutout innings facing twenty-five batters and throwing 102 pitches (63 of them for strikes Pitching 6 2/3 shutout innings is really notable, his pitch count really isn't
  • Young's 6–0 2006 road performance was one of forty-nine undefeated road seasons with at least five victories by pitchers since post-season play began in 1903. It is the first, however, to be followed by a post-season road victory. I'm sorry, this is the most obscure statistic ever
  • Allie Reynolds is the only other pitcher to go twenty-five road starts without a loss.[57] Reynolds' twenty-five game streak spanned the 1948 and 1949 seasons.[3] The last of the nine other pitchers to go twenty consecutive road starts without a loss was Greg Maddux who went twenty-two starts without a loss during the 1997 and 1998 OK, we get it, good road pitcher, Reynolds
  • Young continued his mastery over the Pittsburgh Pirates against whom he twice took no-hitters into the 6th inning in 2006. He posted 7 shutout innings and has now allowed only 7 hits against the Pirates in 23 2/3 innings I am surprised that every pitcher in the national league can't claim utter superiority over the Pirates.
    • :)17:10, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
  • The day before, Alfonso Soriano homered off David Wells, and upset the Padres with his admiration and celebration of his own work. He stopped at the plate to admire the ball and then started his home run trot with a few steps backward.Maybe this is valid, maybe not. I just cannot imagine how a fight takes as much time to discuss as his entire minor league career

These just need to be re-written edit

    • Normally I would just rewrite an article myself and fry some of the more random stuff. But you have made the effort to ask for input so that's my two cents. Take it for what its worth. Montco 03:00, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Too many citations/extraneous information edit

But there are some parts of the article that have numerous citations for the same sentence, like this: "His five starts in June were highlighted by a career high twelve strikeout performance on June 9, 2006 against the Florida Marlins and a June 21, 2006 win over his former team, the Texas Rangers.[45][58][59][60][61]" I don't think you really need 5 citations for one sentence. Another thing that kinda bothers me about this is the fact that it jumps from 45 to 61, meaning that in between the first time "reference 45" is used to here, there are (at least) 16 other citations.

I am considering using either the box score citation or the game summary/recap. This change would take a sentence like the above from 5 to 3 citations.
Jumping citations are caused when a very important reference is used throughout a well cited article. This is a good thing. It says we have cited several important claims and that we have found a very important resource. Recall WP is a tertiary resource that relies on credible secondary resources. TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 17:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm aware that proves that the source is a really good source. But I think that if you have a lot of information from one source, then you could just group all that stuff together. --Ksy92003(talk) 18:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Reference 1: cited 8 times.
Reference 16: cited 9 times.
Reference 24: cited 15 times.
Reference 44: cited 13 times.
Again, this is an indicator that we have found a credible secondary source chock full of interesting claims. This is a sign of a high caliber WP article. It is a common feature of WP:FAs. Not so common in stubs and start class articles. TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 17:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I also think this could all be grouped together so the site only needs to be referenced once. --Ksy92003(talk) 18:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Now here are the similar references I've spotted, followed by how many references I think are necessary:

References 97-103: 2
When this goes through WP:FAC next month we will get much broader feedback on this issue. TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 17:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That would be good. --Ksy92003(talk) 18:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are also several parts of this article that are unrelated to Young, which I think can be removed (not in any particular order, just the order that I found it in). These following sections could be better placed in San Diego Padres:

"Young was overshadowed by teammate Jake Peavy (4-0, 0.79 ERA) for the National League Pitcher of the Month in a month where teammate Trevor Hoffman (0.00 ERA, 11 saves) was also a contender.[94]"
Explains why his performance was better than the month he won the award last year, but did not win. TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 17:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Young's performance is independant of that of Jake Peavy or Trevor Hoffman. What they do doesn't affect Young. He didn't win the award, so it doesn't need to be mentioned. --Ksy92003(talk) 18:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes but Young's story is intertwined with Peavy's. See the latest addition from this weekend's activities. TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 21:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"...when the Cubs travelled to play Young's former team the Texas Rangers, whose Sammy Sosa hit his 600th home run during the series against his former Cubs team"
Will be removed soon. TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 17:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Should be removed, this is only in the article because of Sosa through the Rangers through the Cubs through Derrek Lee through Young. This is a five-link chain created by Young. Additionally, what Young does doesn't change the schedule. The Cubs would play the Rangers, no matter what. --Ksy92003(talk) 18:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
All gone. TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 21:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"However, Carlos Zambrano continued his no hit bid into the 8th inning, but took the l-0 loss by surrendering a home run.[103]"
Young got ejected in the fourth when both had no hitters going. This may be modified, but is part of the story. TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 17:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Again, what Zambrano does has absolutely no affect on Young's performance. And this isn't an article for the story. Zambrano's no-hit bid is completely irrelevant to the events that occurred earlier in the game and it is completely irrelevant to Young in anyway. --Ksy92003(talk) 18:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is a reminder that it could have been a nohit duel. TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 21:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Other Princeton baseball players who played in the major leagues include Moe Berg, Charlie Caldwell, and John Easton.[32] The other Ivy League players to have played for the Texas Rangers are Pete Broberg (Dartmouth College) and Doug Glanville (University of Pennsylvania).[24]"
Believe me his numerous Ivy League fans find this to be an encyclopedic claim. TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 17:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Um... how are you able to prove this "claim?" How are you able to prove that he has numerous Ivy League fans and that they find this claim notable? The Ivy League players who played in the MLB don't affect him and him playing in the MLB. --Ksy92003(talk) 18:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Proof would be its source who is meeting the interests of its audience. TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 21:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Three other current and previous pitchers--Randy Johnson,[34] Andrew Sisco,[35] and Eric Hillman[36]--are also 6 ft 10 in (2.08 m). "
Better to say he is among only 4 6 ft 10 in major league pitchers ever than to say he is 6 ft 10 in. TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 17:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Again, it isn't really important to list the other 6'10" players. I actually think it would be preferrable to only say that he is 6'10" without listing the other players. --Ksy92003(talk) 18:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Watch for WP:FAC and the majority will rule. TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 21:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"This was the first Ranger 1-0 victory since August 25, 2000 against the Toronto Blue Jays,[43] a stretch of 669 games.[24]"
May be removed. TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 17:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, more about the Rangers than Young. --Ksy92003(talk) 18:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Probably after a few all-star games this kind of stuff will be less important. It is probably still topical now. Again, watch for WP:FAC
"The Padres are joined by the New York Mets, Colorado Rockies and Tampa Bay Devil Rays as the only franchises who have never pitched no-hitters.[62]"
Every time Young pitches he will be shooting to erase the Padre name from this list. As a tertiary resource we report what is important according to secondary resources. TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 17:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you said that every single night, a player has the chance of hitting 6 home runs in a game, then you would say on every single article "[Player] hasn't hit 6 home runs in a game in his career. Additionally, you can't be sure that Young will be the pitcher to throw the Padres' first no-hitter. --Ksy92003(talk) 18:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We report what secondary sources include. If it is important enough to include in a news story, it may be important enough for this. Watch for FAC.
"Allie Reynolds is the only other pitcher to go twenty-five road starts without a loss.[57] Reynolds' twenty-five game streak spanned the 1948 and 1949 seasons.[3]" (is that Reference 3 again? From 57 to 3?
Common when one uses a cited WP:LEAD to have such skips. If a fact is important it will be cited in the lead and then again wherever it occurs.TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 17:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Somebody else performing a particular feat doesn't affect another player's odds of performing that same feat. --Ksy92003(talk) 18:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Don't understand point.TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 21:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"last of the nine other pitchers to go twenty consecutive road starts without a loss was Greg Maddux who went twenty-two starts without a loss during the 1997 and 1998.[85]"
His streak was an important accomplishment. He must put it in context. TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 17:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't matter who was the last player to accomplish the feat, that still doesn't affect Young's chances of performing that same feat. --Ksy92003(talk) 18:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is an odd streak. This helps people get a perspective of how commonly it occurs. TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 21:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And I still think that only one reference is needed for one sentence, not five, four, or more.

Reference 24 is his player profile. It doesn't need to be referenced 15 times. It's his player profile for the 2004 season, which I believe is only necessary at the end of the 2004 season section.

If this were the only reference for this section I would do that. However, with numerous references, people need to know where the claims are coming from.TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 17:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Simply group all that information together and reference it at the end of the section. --Ksy92003(talk) 18:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reference 16 is "The Top 20 Greatest Athletes." Why is that referencing his personal life?

Look at article and see claim cited. TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 17:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not gonna worry about this. --Ksy92003(talk) 18:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reference 44 is his player profile for 2005. Again, I believe it is only necessary to reference it at the end of the 2005 season section.

We'll get feedback on this at WP:FAC, however, see above. TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 17:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Same thing as above. --Ksy92003(talk) 18:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reference 56 is his player profile for 2006. "Broken record," end of 2006 season section

Same as above. --Ksy92003(talk) 18:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

References 97-103 are about the Cubs/Padres brawl. I believe that it is only necessary to have one reference for the fight and one for the suspension. The other 5 we can do away with.

Each story has bits of the claim. TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 17:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I still don't understand how one or two references can't be used for this. And if the references contain parts and parts of the whole story, then simply find a source that contains the whole story. --Ksy92003(talk) 18:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reference 77 is a blog written by Young. A blog itself isn't valid as a source, even an autobiographical blog.

"In November 2006, he traveled to Japan to take part in the Major League Baseball Japan All-Star Series.[77][78] Young was the starter in an exhibition game against the Yomiuri Giants which was memorable for the Major leaguers' three run ninth inning rally to earn a tie.[79] This game was the prelude to the 5-game series which began with three games at the Tokyo Dome and was followed by games in Osaka, Japan and Fukuoka, Japan.[80] Young pitched the fourth game of the series. Young also blogged on behalf of mlb.com about daily life during the trip. He detailed visits with United States Ambassador to Japan Tom Schieffer, time in the Harajuku, and travels on the Bullet Train.[77]"

I believe this is far too much info to talk about one event. If it were me, I'd simply say that he traveled to Japan to participate in a baseball game against the Yomiuri Giants. The last part, "He detailed visits with United States Ambassador to Japan Tom Schieffer, time in the Harajuku, and travels on the Bullet Train.[77]," seems too biographical for an encyclopedia.
A common complaint is that an article is not broad enough. We have to focus as much as we can on things outside the lines when they are relevant. TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 17:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Young's performance didn't determine the rally, it didn't determine that three games were played here and the other two were played here. I would just say "In November 2006, Young traveled to Japan and pitched in an exhibition game against Japanese All-Stars." --Ksy92003(talk) 18:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Again, not every single game needs to be mentioned. I would mention games like his closest no-hitter, career-high for strikeouts in a game, the brawl, team/rookie records, and I don't think that every single season needs its own section, maybe a section for his pre-MLB years, a section for his Rangers years, and a section for his Padres years. I would remove anything that doesn't directly relate to Chris Young, like Trevor Hoffman and Jake Peavy in the competition for the NL Pitcher of the Month award. The part that says, "The day before the fracus, Alfonso Soriano homered off David Wells, and upset the Padres with his admiration and celebration of his own work. He stopped at the plate to admire the ball and then started his home run trot with a few steps backward," isn't directly related to Young, but is indirectly. First, it should be before the mention of the HBP. Second, shorten it to saying something like "the Padres weren't happy that Alfonso Soriano took his time to round the bases."

Personally, I think that a lot of the abbreviated versions you suggest are a good way to take a viable WP:FAC and send it back to WP:GA status. I will make some changes to this one. TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 17:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Not only does not every game need to be mentioned, but the ones that are don't need to be sourced. Game stats aren't something that somebody will come to and argue about. I think you've over-referenced the article. --Ksy92003(talk) 18:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the pictures in the 2005 season section are just pictures of him warming up before a game. First, I would remove those pictures because it isn't any different than his picture in the infobox, just a different angle of a different pitch. Second, those pictures would belong in the 2007 season, anyway.

This is a really good article, no doubt. But it has way too much information. This isn't a game-by-game biography of Chris Young. I believe only the most important, extremely crucial stats should be included such as the aforementioned personal bests, team/rookie records, notable events like the brawl, how close he came to that no hitter in 2005, etc.

I counted over 200 times in the article that something was referenced. I don't think any FA comes close to that amount. It's very hard to read the article to see [1][5][48][38][2][7][4][85][35][74] everywhere. It needs flow so it's easier to read, and by that I mean the references are distracting and make it more difficult to read. A lot of duplicate references I think need to be removed and a lot of the excess information about every single game should be cut and only kept in if it's notable, such as those career/team highs, etc. --Ksy92003(talk) 14:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Many FAs have twice as many citations as this one. I will likely eliminate dual references from the same publisher for the same game as I mentioned before. TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 17:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, there are too many references here and every little detail is referenced by about 3 sources. Most of them can be combined by finding one source that contains all that information and can group together information. The others are mostly sentences which don't even need to be referenced. And true, many FAs have more citations than this one; however, those FAs also are a lot longer and the references are throughout the article and spread out throughout the article. Those FAs don't have a reference/citation every 1.5 sentences.
At FAC I have personally had people add such citations to sports articles such as Toronto Raptors and Dominik Hasek. A general reference verifying claim is useful, but an additional box score or game recap is encyclopedic.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 21:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Also, in my opinion, I don't think this article will become a FA in its current state because it's far too challenging to read the article. The large amount of references disrupts the flow in the article and you can't read it without being disrupted by ...[23][4]...[23][86][32]...[64][24]...[43][27]...[83]. It really makes it hard to read. Also, it's too much like a biography as opposed to an encyclopedia, which is what it should be. --Ksy92003(talk) 18:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You are under no obligation to stop and read each reference. I think this has a good shot at FAC. How many FAC's have you been involved in? TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 21:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't been involved in any FAC's because usually the articles that I edit are not articles that were created for the purpose of trying to get it to be one.
As far as "stopping and reading each reference," I'm not really planning on spending a couple hours of my precious, valuable time to read 100 references just because of one baseball player. But if you're so confident that this will be a FA, then we'll just see. --Ksy92003(talk) 20:42, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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