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Cherry Springs State Park

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This peer review discussion has been closed.
We've listed this article for peer review because we believe that it could be a Featured Article, and are looking for some feedback before it is submitted to WP:FAC. It follows a format and style very similar to that of Black Moshannon State Park, Worlds End State Park, Leonard Harrison State Park, and Colton Point State Park, which are all featured articles that we have worked on. We will make articles for the red links before FAC. This park had more sources available than any we have worked on - hopefully the article is not too detailed.

Thanks in advance for any feedback, Dincher (talk) and Ruhrfisch ><>°° 15:27, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]


A couple comments:

  • Is there a better lead picture? Maybe of the park at night or of an active star gazing meeting, etc? The galaxy lead image is very odd and a crisper version of File:Cherry Springs State Park Astronomy Domes.jpg would be amazing.
    • Thanks very much for the feedback. While I agree the lead image is unusual, the view of the stars and especially the Milky Way is what the park is now best known for. Unfortunately we do not have any good free images of the park itself at night or any free images at all of people observing at the park or of the Woodsmen's show. I may be able to get some this summer. Using a photo of the night sky at the park to illustrate websites and articles about Cherry Springs is common: the official DCNR website uses a photo of what appears to be the aurora borealis taken in the park (with what looks to be a telescope silhouetted in front); the DCNR's The Dark Skies of Cherry Springs State Park website uses a similar photo of the Milky Way; the image in the New York Times article is an odd composite of an astronomer and the night sky (stars are visible through the man's body); and the lead image in the Williamsport Sun Gazette article is a wide angle shot of the Milky Way, with telescopes visible at the bottom of the frame. We were able to get the four astrophotographs courtesy of Kevin Wigell, and told him we would do our best to use one of his photos as the lead image and that it would hopefully be on the Main Page someday (if it were featured). Flickr has no free images of the park at all, but I will see if we can find any free pics of the Woodsmen's show anywhere and see if Kevin Wigell has any "stars and observers" pictures. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:45, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thanks for the comments. I agree with Ruhrfisch in thinking that the pic of the stars needs to stay in the infobox. The star gazing aspect of the park is what makes it unique. Dincher (talk) 03:03, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can you add more on the Woodsmen's Show (maybe pictures?), I've seen shows like that on television and they tend to be very interesting.
    • See above on pictures of the show. Having read dozens and dozens of old newspaper articles on the show, I am not sure what else should be added. The names of winners are published, but that is not really encyclopedic. They used to award a desk made of cherry wood as a prize each year. The trade show part used to have millions of dollors of equipment exhibited. One year they had a bagpipe band there and another a military missile on display (not sure what either had to do with Woodsmen). There is lots of good food to eat and Smokey Bear usually makes an appearance. Besides a photo (which I agree the section needs) do you have any more specific things to add / questions unanswered? Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:45, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • It seems like the only way we could get a pic of the woodsmen's show by actually going to the park unless we could get a free image from the folks at the park or the folks that run the show. Dincher (talk) 03:03, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Nearby state parks section could use a bit of work. A visual map or listing of how far each park is would be helpful. Also, are there any non-state parks (federal, local, etc), nearby?
    • Hmmm, each of the 120 Pennsyvlania state parks articles has such a section in the same format (inlcuding the FAs). The easist thing to add is the wikilinked map of the location all the state parks at {{State parks of Pennsylvania map}}, see it in List of Pennsylvania state parks - would that work? There are no other national parks, though Allegheny National Forest and several other state forests are probably within the distance limit. Not sure about all the possible local parks - I know Galeton has a park but local parks tend to be much different than state parks. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:45, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Have you looked at http://terraserver-usa.com for a detailed aerial image to compare to the 1938 image?
    • Yes, the link is here. The 1994 image shows more buildings at the former airport, but they have since been demolished. At thumb scale I doubt the details show up. I like the 1938 image as it makes the nature of the dissected plateau clearer - those creeks are slow, but they carve out the rock anyway. Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:45, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are there any astronomy-related categories it can be added to?

Hope that helps. MBisanz talk 06:04, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

quick comment by doncram I don't want to be contradictory, but i very much liked the unusual presentation of a view of stars from the location. When i look at the domes pic which Mbisanz points to, it is sort of interesting but doesn't convey the sense of wonder that the stars pic conveys. Also, i like the artistic presentation, one above the other, of 2 very horizontally oriented pics of one structure at the park. doncram (talk) 06:34, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And, the later presentation in the article of the dark zonedness of this location further supports the unusual upfront stars pic. About the cherry trees though, I would very much appreciate if you could be more specific about what kind of cherry trees these are. At risk of being personally revealing, i recall from a Boy Scout merit badge process that black cherry trees are a specific species. My guess is that these are black cherries. What are the blossoms in Washington, D.C., aren't those also cherry trees? But, those are of some species from Japan, which is very nice, but is completely different from cherry trees found in the northeast United States. They are certainly not Bing cherry trees from Washington state. doncram (talk) 06:43, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The black cherry tree article omits it, but a key to identifying black cherry trees (and perhaps other cherry trees), is that on the underside of the leaf, there is fuzziness along the central vein of the leaf. I think in fact the fuzziness is orangish in color. That is the main distinguishing characteristic of cherry versus other similarly shaped leaves (symmetrical, tapered to a point at tip and at stem). Of course you should exclude the possibility that these cherry trees are the southern species described also in the black cherry tree article. doncram (talk) 07:06, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I have linked Prunus serotina to the first instance of Black cherry in the article - that is it. Thanks for your comments, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 21:31, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for the info on the Cherry trees. I have often wondered the difference between the Cherry trees. Dincher (talk) 03:03, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • On rereading, I also made it clear (and linked) in the lead that these are Black Cherry trees, thanks again for pointing this out. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 14:50, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Jackyd101 A very good article, and I only have a handful of comments. Let me know when I goes to FAC and I'll happily support.--Jackyd101 (talk) 14:51, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I agree with the questions raised over the lead image: although I understand the arguments for the picture, I think a view of the park would be a better choice. (Non-essential)
    • Thanks, I have changed the caption to The Milky Way, seen here in Sagittarius, is bright enough in the park to cast a shadow. to try and make it clearer why this image was chosen. I think it would be a good idea to ask at FAC for anyone weighing in on the article to also comment on the lead image. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 14:50, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After this, the" - not a good way to start a paragraph: after what? I suggest "After the departure of the Susquehannocks"
  • "American Revolutionary War and this treaty," - explain the effect of the war more clearly - the Treaty came after the conclusion of the war, so either talk about the war before talking about the treaty or cut the war reference entirely.
    • Thanks for pointing this out. Four of the Iroquois nations and other Natives fought on the British side in the American Revolutioinary War, and there was ethnic cleansing on both sides - see Big Runaway and Sullivan's Expedition. After the war, settlers moved into new areas in the north and west of Pennsylvania, driving out natives who had stayed. Rather than open this can of worms in an article on a state park known for lumberjack antics and stargazers, I just made it The French and Indian War (1754–1763) led to the migration of many Native Americans westward to the Ohio River basin, and more departed after the American Revolutionary War (1775–1783).[6] In October 1784, the United States acquired the "Last Purchase" from the Iroquois in the second Treaty of Fort Stanwix, including what is now Cherry Springs State Park.[7] After this treaty, Native Americans almost entirely left Pennsylvania.[6] Is this better, or should I go into more detail? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 14:50, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think the detail is fine for this article, but I would suggest finding a different way to phrase "After this treaty", perhaps a date? "By 178X, Native Americans had almost . . ."?--Jackyd101 (talk) 19:12, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My bad, poorly explained. The level of detail in article as it is is great, except the slight change in phrasing suggested above.--Jackyd101 (talk) 22:59, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the clarification. I tired changing it to The United States acquired the "Last Purchase", including what is now Cherry Springs State Park, from the Iroquois in the second Treaty of Fort Stanwix in October 1784.[7] In the years that followed, Native Americans almost entirely left Pennsylvania.[6] Is this better? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:38, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "That same year Cherry Springs Drive also had one of 16 "Class B" public campgrounds in the state forests" - is there a word missing here? Like "built"?
    • The sources on the public campgrounds do not say when they were built, so I changed it to That same year, one of 16 "Class B" public campgrounds in the state forests was located on Cherry Springs Drive. My guess is that they do not have records on when they were built, but there is a booklet on the state forests and facilities in them from 1922 which mentions these, and that is the reason for the date. Thanks for your comments, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 15:35, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Brianboulton comments: I have read the article through, made a few tiny typo fixes, and come up with a very short list of very minor points. I read at normal reading speed, so I can't guarantee I picked up everything. I found the article meticulously put together, very comprehensive – at times I wondered about the level of detail, particularly in some of the later sections. That might be worth looking at before FAC. Anyway, my minor issues:-

  • Lead
    • ""Cherry Springs Scenic Drive" was established in 1922, but the Civilian Conservation Corps built much of Cherry Springs State Park during the Great Depression..." Is "but" the right conjunction here?
      • Changed to "and" (but was originally used to show it was not really a park until the CCC took over). Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:51, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's not quite clear how adding an airport to the park expands its stargazing area, unless you mean the airport was disused. People can't wander about operational airports stargazing, can they? (I think this is expanded later in the article, but could be clarified here in the lead)
      • Made clearer that the airport was closed, and then its land was added to the park. Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:51, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I wonder if a "discernible", rather than a "faint" shadow might be a bit more expressive? "Faint" doesn't seem to do justice to the phenomenon. (Also occurs later in the article)
  • In the Native Americans section I fixed a couple of nbsps; it might be worth checking for others in the article.
  • (Dark skies section): I'm not used to seeing "can not" as two words; if this is common US usage that's fine, but I thought I'd mention it.

All in all, congratulations on another impressive achievement. Brianboulton (talk) 22:53, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from a random editor named Michael Devore: The article content describes the tavern as built by "Jonathan Edgecomb", spelled with an extra 'e' not in the last name for the rest of the article content, but the picture caption says it was built by Jacob Edgcomb. I think there's a double error, but I'm not sure if it's one error in two places, or two errors in one place. -- Michael Devore (talk) 21:15, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Whoops! I checked the official park website and Harrison and Morey's history article and both spell it as "Jonathan Edgcomb" so I have changed all spellings to be consistent with that version. Thanks so much for this and your edits. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 21:39, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Photo update I have heard from Kevin Wigell, who graciously provided the astrophotographs used in the article. He does not have photos of the Woodsmen's Show or of people observing in the park at night (he pointed out it is dark when observers are active and a flash would be very frowned upon). Ruhrfisch ><>°° 21:39, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have also heard from Tim Morey and he does not have any free images of the Woodsmen's show or observers at the park. He suggested someone else to contact who has pictures of observing at the park. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:13, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Moni3

  • I don't know if there's a policy for this, but in the articles about the Everglades I was encouraged to use scientific names of plants and animals as links, such as Southern live oak (Quercus virginiana). I did notice that the birds in the Ecology section vary between singular and plural, which should be fixed before FAC. I don't think it matters which way it is expressed, but it should be consistent. I also noticed the capitalization of animal and plant names is inconsistent.
  • Information about star parties made me wonder if they have their own outfits and culture like the Society for Creative Anachronism...
  • Image placement left under the Recreation subheading?
    • This is an attempt to preserve left-right alternation of images and not run afoul of WP:ACCESS (for some reason it is OK to have a left justified image under a level two header, but not under a level three header). Is it a problem? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:22, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't have an opinion about the astronomy image at the top. It made me do a what what?? double take, but since the lead mentions the park is a well-known site for star gazing, it makes sense to me.
  • Otherwise, I though the writing was interesting and engaging. It might be worth it to go through it for overlinking.
  • Well done. Y'all make me feel like slackers for not working on Florida State Parks. --Moni3 (talk) 15:23, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks very much for your review and kind words - my internet access is fairly limited for the next several days, so I will quickly reply to a few points here and above, and work on the rest later. The names of species follows the MOS, specifcially we use "title case for common names of species throughout (see WP:BIRDS) and lower case for non-specific names such as eagle or bilberry, which may work well for articles with a broad coverage of natural history" (so "Cooper Hawks" but just "hawks", or "Black Cherry trees" but just "cherry trees". That said, we will look very closely at the names and make sure they are consistent in terms of this and singular vs. plural. We will also check for overlinking and too much detail (per Biran's comment). Thanks again, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:22, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Images update - we have found two better images for use in the article (one of telescopes set up on the Astronomy Field and one of the domes in winter) that should be on Commons via OTRS soon. Also have found a DCNR image of the Woodsmen's Show which may be free (website says only attribution is required, license is unclear) and are asking about that. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 19:11, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Finetooth comments: Fascinating article, well-done. I don't remember visiting this park, though I've been to Ole Bull and Kettle Creek. The Astronomy Field sounds wonderful. Here are a few nitpicks and quibbles, nothing big, that I hope will be useful.

Native Americans

  • "Archeological evidence found in the state from this time includes a range of pottery types and styles, burial mounds, pipes, bows and arrow, and ornaments." - Should that be "arrows", plural?
  • "Cherry Springs State Park is in the West Branch Susquehanna River drainage basin, whose earliest recorded inhabitants were the Iroquoian-speaking Susquehannocks." - I don't think a drainage basin can be a "who". Suggestion: "Cherry Springs State Park is in the West Branch Susquehanna River drainage basin, the earliest recorded inhabitants of which were the Iroquoian-speaking Susquehannocks."
Fixed both. Thanks! Dincher (talk) 22:58, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pioneers and lumber

  • "A bridle path was cut through the woods in 1806–1807, and was widened to accommodate wagons in 1812 (modern Pennsylvania Route 44, which passes through the park, follows the course of this path between Jersey Shore and Coudersport)." - Since the words inside the parentheses form a complete sentence, I'd tweak things this way: "A bridle path was cut through the woods in 1806–1807, and was widened to accommodate wagons in 1812. (Modern Pennsylvania Route 44, which passes through the park, follows the course of this path between Jersey Shore and Coudersport.)
Fixed this too. Dincher (talk) 01:14, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Civilian Conservation Corps

  • "According to the Camp's 1936 History: "Through the efforts of the [CCC] enrollees Cherry Springs Park... " - Lowercase "camp"?
And a small 'c' it is. Dincher (talk) 01:16, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Modern era

  • "The 1980s saw the CCC and their work in the park honored." Decades can't see, and I think CCC is an "it" rather than a "they". Suggestion: "In the 1980s, the CCC and its work in the park were honored."
  • "None of the other remaining CCC structures in the park had retained their historic integrity sufficiently to be included on the NRHP." - "None" is singular, but "their" is plural. Suggestion: "None of the other remaining CCC structures in the park had retained its historic integrity sufficiently to be included on the NRHP."
  • "On June 11, 2008, the International Dark-Sky Association named Cherry Springs State Park the second 'International Dark Sky Park' (the first was Natural Bridges National Monument in Utah)." - Here's another complete sentence inside parentheses. I'd do the same with this one: "On June 11, 2008, the International Dark-Sky Association named Cherry Springs State Park the second 'International Dark Sky Park'. (The first was Natural Bridges National Monument in Utah.)"
Fixed them all. Thank you. Dincher (talk) 01:20, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ecology

  • "Although hunting is not allowed in the park, it is in the state forest, which regained its title as a "sportsmen's paradise" in the 20th century." - This might be more clear if re-phrased slightly. "It" seems to mean "the park" at first glance, and this is confusing. Suggestion: "Although banned in the park, hunting is allowed in the surrounding state forest, which regained its title as a "sportsmen's paradise" in the 20th century."
Fixed this too. That's all for me for tonight. Dincher (talk) 01:26, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Woodsmens' Show

  • "In the early years, up to three working sawmills would be set up just for the carnival... " - "were" rather than "would be"?
  • "In 1990 the name was changed to the "Woodsmen's Show"... " - Maybe I'm missing it, but what was it called before 1990?
  • "Although it is no longer part of the STIHL series, as of 2008 many of the same athletes compete at the show." - Maybe this should be past tense, "competed", since the date is in the past.
  • "and by the early 2000's attendance was about 14,000... " - To avoid the "2000's" that looks like a possessive, maybe "and by the early 21st century attendance was about 14,000... "?
  • "The Galeton Rotary Club uses the funds to improve the standard of living in and around Galeton, including college scholarships, a new roof for the Community building, support for the local public library, and clean-up and maintenance of the downtown." - Perhaps this should all be past tense as well since things like the roof addition were, I think, done in the past.
    • All of your suggestions have been adopted - I clarified that the name change was from the "Woodsmen's Carnival" to the "Woodsmen's Show" (former name was in the History section, but not here before). Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:14, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Camping, picnicking, and trails

  • "There is also a holding tank dump station for RV's." - "RVs"?
  • "Although it is not an official camping area, overnight observers on the Astronomy Field can set up tents and vehicles in which to camp." - A bit awkward because the first clause seems to modify "overnight observers". Suggestion: "Although the Astronomy Field is not an official camping area, overnight observers can set up tents and vehicles in which to camp." Should "elsewhere in the park" be inserted here for clarity as well?
Fixed RVs. Changed astronomy camping sentence per suggestion used 'may' instead of 'can'. Leaving elsewhere in the park for further thoughts (I have none.) Dincher (talk) 02:24, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I added the word "there" to clarify that they can camp on the Astronomy Field if they are observing there (asked Finetooth about this too - thanks). Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:41, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

References

  • I see a bit of inconsistency in the date formatting in the citations. Most are in yyyy-mm-dd format but some, like citations 32 and 34 are in m-d-y format or are in both formats like citation 49.

I hope these suggestions prove helpful. Finetooth (talk) 22:38, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • They are very helpful - I will work on them all in the next 24 hours - thanks! Ruhrfisch ><>°° 23:10, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Last update I believe all issues raised above have now been addressed. Thanks to everyone who reviewed this, we are closing the PR and taking the article to WP:FAC. There are now two beautiful images from professional photographer Curt Weinhold in the article (one of covered telescopes and one of two astronomy domes in the snow). The Pennsylvania Bureau of State Parks has also provided an image of the Woodsmen's Show. While the OTRS is pending on that, it should be resolved in a day or two and so it seems OK to go to FAC. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 19:01, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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