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Bobby Peel edit

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This is a little earlier than planned, as a couple of other articles have been held up, so I'm afraid it's another Yorkshire cricketer. Peel is a quite interesting, though, as he is most famous for something that he probably never did. The story goes that in his last game for Yorkshire, he turned up drunk and urinated on the pitch. That is unlikely, but he was a heavy drinker whose career came to an unpleasant end. That aside, he was one of the best cricketers of his time. This is aimed at FAC, but I'm a bit worried that the middle section drags and becomes a list of statistics. Comments on this, or any other prose/comprehensibility issues would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Sarastro1 (talk) 19:40, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Comments from Tim riley edit

First batch. More to come:

  • Yorkshire cricketer
    • "with greater regularity later on" – perhaps "with increasing frequency"
    • "in his history of Yorkshire, R. S. Holmes" – probably best to say that this is the history of the club, not the administrative county
    • "He had occasionally success with the ball" – "occasional" rather than "occasionally"?
  • Test debut
    • "team led by Billy Murdoch that had toured England" – commas around Billy Murdoch would help the flow
      • On balance, we don't need Murdoch at all. Removed. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:45, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • "the proportion of money raised at the grounds which went to each team – a bit wordy: perhaps "each team's share of the match receipts"?
  • Sacking of Peate
    • "Lord Hawke assumed full-time control" – this is the second time you've said "assumed", which has overtones of a coup. No better word leaps to mind, I admit, but you may like to ponder.
      • I've reworded a little; part of me suspects a coup was not that far removed from reality, but that's beside the point! Sarastro1 (talk) 09:45, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Australia were bowled out for 42 runs" – shouldn't that be in bold caps and at least 18 point font?
      • Less so in those days, and it was a very weak team, but yes I agree! (Try Edgbaston 1902 for a real glow: and that was a good Australian team. Admittedly, they won the series, but that's another story...) Sarastro1 (talk) 09:45, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Home Test matches
    • "Ted Wainwright took more wickets than him" – "than he did" would feel more comfortable from a grammatical point of view
    • "had proven poor" – I think of "proven" as either Scottish or American usage, and would be inclined to go for "proved".
      • I'd never thought of that before! Fixed. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:45, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

More follows soonest. Tim riley (talk) 21:35, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Much obliged. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:45, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Second and concluding batch:

  • Australian tour of 1894–95
    • "After having five teeth extracted, Peel played a leading role in the first Test" – this reads rather mystifyingly. If his good performance was in stoic disregard of the recent extractions, I think we want something on the lines of "Despite having five teeth extracted [x hours] before, Peel played…" On the other hand if he had previously been impeded by toothache and the extractions helped, then you might say so.
      • The sources don't really say what happened, and part of me suspects that this is just David Frith showing off how good his research is. It really doesn't add much, so I've cut it. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:35, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Later life
    • "the memorial service for Lord Hawke following his death in 1938" – You could lose "following his death": it would hardly have been before it.
  • Notes
    • Note 1 – the OED doesn't hyphenate "noteworthy".
  • Capitalisation/italicisation of titles of publications: you are inconsistent: e.g. you have "the Sporting Life" but "The Cricket Quarterly", and in your notes you have "The Times" but in the references it's "The Times". Being an old fossil I prefer the latter, though I know The Guardian now calls itself "the Guardian". Consistency desirable, whichever form you favour.
    • I think I've sorted that, but often get confused whether publications actually have "the" in their title or not. Now, only The Times should, and I just removed the other "the"s. (I hope that makes sense to you, because I'm not sure it does to me!) Sarastro1 (talk) 11:35, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That's all from me. I can't say I found the article bogged down by statistics as you fear it might be. The only place where I had a brief moment of figure fatigue was in the Australia 1894/5 section, but even there I can't see how you could trim much without losing important and relevant information. In any case, I think most people who read the main text (rather than just the lead) will be cricket buffs, who notoriously lap statistics up. And you intersperse the stats with marvellous human touches. I particularly like the gravely demure way you explain for the benefit of those not from these islands that "pissed at the wicket" does not necessarily mean widdled on the popping crease but could just be drunk in charge of a cricket bat. – Tim riley (talk) 10:02, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review! Sarastro1 (talk) 11:35, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Comments by Giants edit

  • First em dash in the second paragraph has a space afterwords that needs removal.
  • We don't need two George Hirst links in the lead.
  • Yorkshire cricketer: "allowed Peel to make his made his first-class debut for Yorkshire against Surrey on 10 July." Drop "made his" – or "his made" if you prefer. Same difference.
  • Home Test matches: Wisden Cricketer of the Year should be italicised.
  • I think it should just be Wisden that is italicised, so done. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:50, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Later life: One of the years is wrong in 1932–32. Giants2008 (Talk) 03:43, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for these catches! Sarastro1 (talk) 09:50, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Crisco comments edit

  • playing 20 Test matches in which he took 101 wickets. - could be read as him having taken a century a match. May need to rework
  • he played a Test in England for the first time. - implies he played a Test elsewhere before that. Not sure if that's your intention.
  • Watch for repetition of words based on "bowl"
  • Got some, but I may have over-jargonned it, so I'd appreciate if you could check! Sarastro1 (talk) 10:17, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • As a player, Peel was very popular and admirers often entertained him socially; he became well known for liking to drink. In the match won by England after following-on, Peel was drunk on the morning of the match, and had to be sobered up. In 1897, he was suspended by Yorkshire for drunkenness during a match. Although it is unclear what happened—Peel himself suggested he slipped when fielding, but Hirst remembered many years later that he came on the field drunk and when asked to leave, bowled a ball in the wrong direction—he never played for the county again. A widely circulated story suggests that Peel urinated on the pitch before being sent away, but many historians consider this to be unlikely; the story seems to have originated in 1968, and may be the result of a misunderstanding by the person who reported it. - Although I love this story, I wonder if it's not UNDUE in the lede.
  • Many cricket followers will have heard of Peel purely because of the "pissed at the wicket" thing; it is really the only thing he is still remembered for, so I don't think its UNDUE. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:17, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • No more family information available?
  • I found a fragment which I've added. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:58, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Peel played ... Peel played
  • the English winter - I think it's recommended to avoid all season words in the text... not sure if my recollection is correct
  • You are right, but ... There is no easy way to avoid this. It is a fairly common cricket term (reversed in the southern hemisphere, obviously) and particularly in those days, there was no regular "cricket season" where months could easily be given. To avoid convolutions, I prefer "winter" here, as long as the hemisphere is specified. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:17, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • You haven't mentioned the Gentlemen yet, so for the uninitiated reader "English teams that toured Australia at this time were not composed exclusively of the best cricketers in England. ... The 1884–85 English team, like most earlier tours, contained only professional cricketers" may sound contradictory
  • The Gentlemen/Players thing wouldn't affect this. Some pretty crap amateurs toured as well, and many better professionals were either not invited or chose not to tour. Peel would have by no means have been first choice, hence his lack of selection in England. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:17, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Peel's performance in 1888 resulted in his selection the following spring as one of Wisden's "Six Great Bowlers"; this was the first time Wisden had made the award which in later years became the prestigious Wisden Cricketer of the Year. - Spring (seasons again), and this is not quite being named Wisden Cricketer of the Year as in the lede.
  • Changed lead, and reworded the spring part here. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:17, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • failing to reach fifty in an innings for the first time in an English season since he made his debut. - I'm not following this very well
  • Cut quite a bit of this and reworded. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:17, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overlinking: County Championship, Archie MacLaren,
  • Images:
  • This has come up before with images from this source. There is a convoluted explanation that I came up with last time, and I've added it to the image page at Commons. Basically, there are two possible copyright holders, and they both died within the correct time period. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:32, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • It would be the same as for the Peel image, I suppose. Although I may be too lazy to transfer to Commons! Sarastro1 (talk) 10:32, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • None of this was my work. Would it be easier to switch to another image of Hawke? There are several which are impeccable. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:32, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • If possible, I'd switch to one with better sourcing. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:29, 4 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • without hitting a single four - Pardon?
  • Is the accusation of throwing necessary here?
  • I think so. At the time, it would have been a huge deal, given the names of the accuser and accused, and the fuss at the time about illegal bowling actions. Sarastro1 (talk) 16:15, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • His performances had made him famous - not sure of the relationship between this sentence and the preceding ones
  • I've moved this around a bit. I want to keep the Ainley part, so I moved that to the end, where it may not quite fit, but I'll think some more. Sarastro1 (talk) 16:15, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • At the time, Hawke believed these events cost Yorkshire the County Championship, but the team had only two more games to play in that season's competition, and it was mathematically impossible for them to win. - is this still from Peel?
  • "North" against the "South" - notable?
  • Link A J Webbe?
  • four children, one of whom was killed in the First World War. His wife - may be misinterpreted as the son's wife
  • On a pitch affected by rain, batsmen found him very difficult to bat against, - any way to avoid "bat - bat"?
  • Briggs bowled Australia out on a rain-damaged pitch but this was England's only victory as Australia won the series 2–1 - I don't see Briggs mentioned before this, and no link
  • Any more about Peel the batsman?
  • According to the historian David Frith, and following : not really related to his technique, now, is it?
  • No, but I think it qualifies as "personality", which fits into the section "Technique and personality"! Sarastro1 (talk) 16:15, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Cliftonian edit

Lead

  • I would expand "left-arm spinner" to "left-arm spin bowler"
  • "among their leading batsmen. In 1888," I would break the second paragraph, which is quite long, here. Start the new third paragraph "In 1888, Peel played ..."
  • Actually I've reorganised a bit, and moved some of the content to the first paragraph. I worry now that the third paragraph may be too short! But we'll see. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:36, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "followed-on" are we 100% sure this should this have a hyphen in it? I would suspect that "follow-on" should have a hyphen when it is a noun, while the verb form "follow on" should not (e.g. "Team A expected to follow on, but Team B chose not to enforce the follow-on"). Indeed, looking at the follow-on page, this appears to be the case. What is the proper usage here?
  • I suspect you are correct, and I've changed it. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:36, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he also became the first player to record four successive Test "ducks" (an innings in which a batsman fails to score) in 1894–95" Does this mean he was out for a duck four times in a row, or that four batsmen got out for a duck in a row while he was bowling? Both cases would be rather special, but of course for rather different reasons
  • Changed to "scored" to make it clear it was him. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:36, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "after following-on" again, see above
  • You use the word "drunk" and extensions four times in the lead, including three times in three lines; suggest you add some variation (inebriated or intoxicated perhaps)
  • Took out two of these from the lead. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:36, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He died, aged 84, in 1941." I would rephrase to "He died in 1941 at the age of 84." but this is just personal preference

Infobox

  • I would date the picture ("Bobby Peel in 1897")
  • Shouldn't his national side be "England" rather than "English"?
  • You don't need to wl Australia cricket team twice in the infobox
  • For these two, that comes with the infobox and there is nothing I can do about it unfortunately. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:41, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yorkshire cricketer

  • Maybe say Morley is near Leeds (most people don't know where it is; yes many of those reading this will be familiar with Yorkshire but we should not make this assumption)
  • My worry there would be a long, convoluted sentence: Churwell, near Morley, near Leeds. For me, the link would be sufficient. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:41, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Colts is the youth team, right?
  • "left-arm spinner" again, see above; I would recommend left-arm spin bowler on first usage
  • Was his first-class debut against Surrey in Yorkshire or away from home?

Test debut

  • Looks good to me

Sacking of Peate

  • Great photograph! Really adds to the atmosphere of the piece.
  • "Hawke may have felt able to act as he knew that Peel was available as a replacement" I would attribute this assertion to the source
  • "match winning" shouldn't this have a hyphen?
  • "Although various matches were played by both teams ..." This long sentence has two semicolons; I advise splitting it up

Home Test matches

  • "for the Gentlemen against the Players, he took six for 34" I thought he played for the Players?
  • "The fielding was poor, and Peel had" I would replace the ", and" with a semicolon here
  • "Holmes questioned" perhaps "Holmes pondered"
  • What are the "representative matches" that caused him to miss Yorkshire matches?
  • Various, and too long to list! They had all sorts in those days. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:57, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He played in the first Test at Lord's and took six wickets in the game" Perhaps just "He took six wickets in the first Test, at Lord's"
  • "for their counties. Andrew Stoddart was withdrawn" I would replace the full stop with an emdash and expand; "for their counties—Andrew Stoddart, for example, was withdrawn"
  • You don't need to say again that it was from the England team that the players were being withdrawn
  • "Middlesex-Yorkshire" should be an endash rather than a hyphen
  • "was rained off completely" I'm not sure "completely" is necessary, removing it does not change the meaning in my view
  • A match could be partially rained off after some play had taken place. This one, no play took place. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:57, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Ted Wainwright took more wickets he did" word missing

Australian tour of 1894–95

  • Expand "Stoddart" in the caption to his full name
  • Both paragraphs here are very long, I would recommend splitting them into four
  • "Peel was successful in the opening first-class matches of the tour..." long sentence with two semi-colons, recommend breaking up
  • "drunk heavily" shouldn't this be "drank heavily"?
  • "sticky" the quotation marks here should not be inside the wikilink
  • Love the variations on the quote—I laughed after imagining all the phonetic Yorkshire versions in my head, then seeing it written in "the Queen's English" at the bottom
  • Again see the query above regarding the four successive ducks—it seems we are talking about him being out for a duck four times in a row, but the wording seems to imply this is a great achievement Peel would have been proud of ("a feat unequalled until 1936"). I would try to make clearer, only delicately of course, that this is a bad thing
  • I've tried a little, but short of saying "suffered four successive ducks" (which I'd class as POV) not sure how far I can go. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:57, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Shoving my oar in, I don't think anyone would be likely to condemn "suffered" as POV; it would do very well here, me judice. Tim riley (talk) 17:22, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Final seasons

  • I think this first paragraph is long, recommend splitting
  • Split, although I'm not sure I chose a good place. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:57, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "of his achievement" I would prefer "of this achievement"

I will come back to finish later; great work overall and I look forward to reading the rest —Cliftonian (talk) 10:33, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments so far. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:57, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dismissal by Yorkshire

  • I would wikilink Lord Hawke in the caption
  • "and took eight for 53, and eleven wickets in the match, against Kent." This last comma would be better after "wickets"
  • That wouldn't quite make cricketing sense, but the 11 wickets isn't important, so I took it out. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:09, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Then against Lancashire, he suffered an injury and missed around a month of cricket." Perhaps "He then suffered an injury in a match against Lancashire that caused him to miss around a month of cricket."
  • "Anthony Woodhouse in his history of Yorkshire County Cricket Club," I would put a comma after "Woodhouse"
  • "who was present at the match" Why not just "who was at the match"
  • "Hirst was having breakfast when Peel came in drunk" I would preface this "According to this account," to make clear that this is the start of a new version of the story.
  • "and according to Hirst, bowled a ball in the wrong direction" either put a comma before "according" or take out the one after Hirst
  • "After falling asleep in the hotel, he was advised by Hirst to apologise to Lord Hawke. He refused, claiming that he was indispensable to the team and would be recalled." Perhaps merge these "... to Lord Hawke, but refused, claiming ..."
  • Did signing for Accrington mean he couldn't play for Yorkshire anymore? (as it's in Lancashire?)
  • No, if you were born in Yorkshire, you could play for them wherever you lived. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:09, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "[Lord Hawke] put his arm around me and escorted me off the field and out of Yorkshire cricket. What a gentlemen” typo at the end here, not to mention the weird quotation marks
  • “either very gracious, or exceedingly sarcastic.” weird quotation marks

Later life

  • "the first for the "North" against the "South" and once for the Players against the Gentlemen, although he did little with bat or ball." perhaps "first for the "North" against the "South" and then for the Players against the Gentlemen, but did little with bat or ball."
  • "Pearson suggests that the at Peel's signing showed the clubs that big-name signings could benefit the clubs" word missing here and a bit repetitive; suggest reworking
  • Perhaps make clear for foreigners that a white rose is symbolic of Yorkshire
  • Done. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:09, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oh, dear, must you? Tim riley (talk) 14:19, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes, I think it is essential, and I'm very tempted to add a note that the white rose is far superior to the red variety. Sarastro1 (talk) 16:17, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • Chuckles —Cliftonian (talk) 16:49, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
          • Obituary: Mr Timothy Charles Riley of Islington, late of Liverpool, expired today of spontaneous combustion. Donations in memoriam to the Society for Building a Wall up the Pennines. Tim riley (talk) 17:09, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Technique and personality

  • All looks good. I would however put an inline cite next to where we say he was apparently not a considerate husband, as this is likely to be challenged.

Notes, References, Bibliography

  • See no problems

Looks like a solid FA to me and I fully expect to be supporting it as such in the near future. Well done on this—a really good and enjoyable read, even for a non-Yorkshireman like myself. —Cliftonian (talk) 14:21, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your sharp eye, comments and kind words. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:09, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A pleasure of course —Cliftonian (talk) 10:44, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Brianboulton edit

In view of the weight of comments that you have received from the worthy reviewers above, I think I'll wait for the FAC (not that I shall have much to say there). I've made a couple of minor prose changes, and I've got a couple more small issues with the lead:

  • I don't think the statement "In 1888, Peel played a Test match in England for the first time" is necessary. It doesn't go anywhere; he'd already played against Australia, so this was not his debut
  • I think in this case, I would disagree. The "overseas" Tests were barely worthy of the name, and home Tests were far more prestigious in this period. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:27, 4 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, but that point is not apparent in the lead. The sentence looks misplaced, sandwiched between his "double" feat of 1896 and his matchwinning performance of 1894–95. You could rearrange the text a little, e.g. "He had already played for England, touring Australia with two professional teams, although he did not play a Test in England until 1888. He had also appeared in the prestigious Gentlemen v Players matches." Or something similar. Brianboulton (talk) 11:12, 5 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Stole your wording! Sarastro1 (talk) 18:42, 5 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • It isn't necessary in the lead both to link "duck" and explain what it is. Personally I would simplify this sentence to "...in 1894–95 he became the first player who failed to score in four successive Test innings" – but I'll leave that to you.

Please notify me as soon as you nominate this at FAC, as I shall probably be away from WP for about 10 days from 8 March. Brianboulton (talk) 11:56, 4 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think it will go to FAC in the next day or two. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:27, 4 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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