Wikipedia:Peer review/Bayonetta/archive1

Bayonetta

This peer review discussion has been closed.
This article has something for everyone: monsters and clothing made out of hair, the creator of Devil May Cry, a much-criticized port between consoles, bullet time, browser themes, lollipops, and a glasses-wearing witch with a nice ass who apparently looks like Sarah Palin and can shoot from guns on all four of her limbs before transforming into a panther.

I'll appreciate any and all comments and improvements, except I don't want advice on improving the plot—I might want to get and play this game unspoiled some day, so please make any desired changes there yourself.

Thanks, an odd name 15:46, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Torsodog review

First off, let me say that this will be my first real peer review, so wish me luck on this thing. Secondly, I have never played a DMC game, nor do I plan on playing this game, so you'll get a very fresh, unbiased pair of eyes on this article. Aaaaaaaaaaaand here we go...

General

• I think it is customary to put the "Gameplay" section before the "Plot" section. Is there any particular reason it is switched here?
  • I'll need to fix Gameplay for context later (e.g. who is the player controlling, and who is Bayonetta?), but it doesn't seem as dependent on Plot as I once thought. Moved. --an odd name 18:12, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Lead

Plot

• Yikes, this puppy is beefy. Honestly, I'm going to glaze over this section for the moment. It obviously needs to be cut down quite a bit, and having never played the game or having any idea what it is really all about, I'm certainly not the one to decide what is or is not important. Give me a shout if you ever get a chance to edit this section after you play the game!
  • Before "Plot" became the current mega-section, I tagged it for expansion with "a broader concise plot summary" (emphasis added). Oh well. :) --an odd name 22:11, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Gameplay

• "Combat in Bayonetta, a single-player action game, resembles that in Hideki Kamiya's prior Devil May Cry." - Seems a bit convoluted and abrupt for an opening sentence to me. Maybe "Bayonetta is a single-player action game. The game's combat is similar to director Hideki Kamiya's previous title, Devil May Cry."?
  • Changed, with slight edits because I don't like the repeated "game". --an odd name 18:26, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
• "The player is encouraged to explore ways to dispatch enemies with as much flair as possible through the use of both melee and long ranged attacks, complex combo strings, and multiple weapons." - I would switch these around, eg: Using both melee and long ranged attacks, complex combo strings, and multiple weapons, the player is encouraged to explore ways to dispatch enemies with as much flair as possible."
  • Changed, and combined with a brief explanation of what Bayonetta and her enemies actually are. --an odd name 19:12, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
• "Such devices range from guillotines to iron maidens." - Link guillotines
  • Linked. I expect one or two complaints about overlink if it ever reaches FAC, but whatever. I think more people know what a guillo looks like than its name (or at least that's the order I learned of them thanks to Saturday morning cartoons and such). --an odd name 18:26, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
• "The player can perform many standard action game moves—"double jump, lock onto enemies, rotate the [third-person view] camera, backflip to avoid attacks, swap between weapons on the fly, break apart background objects ... and break through doors"—and can unlock the ability to transform Bayonetta into a panther or one of various other living creatures to enhance her abilities." - I would lose the dash here and break this into two sentences. I would also try to lose the quote if possible.
  • Dash gone. I want to change the quote, but will leave it until I can think of a less paraphrasy way. --an odd name 18:48, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

This is just a start for now. I'll be back for more ASAP. --Torsodog^Talk 17:47, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your tips! --an odd name 00:49, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Comments by David Fuchs

• Lead:
  • Given the size of the article, I think three paragraphs would be a better size, with paragraph two describing development and marketing, and paragraph three describing release and reception. That will allow you space to develop some areas of the article left out in the lead
    • Will do after the rest. --an odd name 00:28, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Be careful not to use to many specifics ("Witch time" and such). Remember that it's an intro and we don't have the benefit of reading for details.
    • Agree with both; will change later... --an odd name 19:55, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
• Gameplay:
  • "Special commands or actions are woven into events, finishes, executions, and unique "Torture combos" in which Bayonetta summons a variety of devices to deal devastating blows to her enemies. Such devices range from guillotines to iron maidens.[4]" With this sentence you will have lost 99% of nongamers (and probably 50% of those who haven't played the game in general). What are these finishes and executions (as they relate to the game)?
  • Try and structure the gameplay section so that novices and relative newbs (who haven't played the game, or DMC, et al, can understand.)
    • Except for the finishes and executions part, I understand it perfectly; still, wouldn't further explanation of that part be WP:GAMEGUIDEing or giving undue weight to those details? Either way, I'll have to save that for others (copyeditors, I guess). --an odd name 00:28, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
  • The section: "Kamiya, who first added such a mode to Devil May Cry..." to the end either seems like it should go to development or marketing/release, or cut as trivial. It's not gameplay, and I don't think it's a good idea to introduce too many creative staff too soon.
    • Will move later... --an odd name 00:28, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
• Plot: The template's right, you gotta hack and slash that puppy, as well as update it for release. I'd say cutting it by more than half would be a good benchmark (especially if you leave the setting and characters detail in.)
  • Will stay that way until I fork the $300-ish for the 360 and game or until they port. No 7th gen consoles in my place yet... --an odd name 19:55, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
• Development:
  • "and the two settled on her original concept for the character despite her work "over a year" on other concepts." Huh? Not really clear what you mean here. They settled on the concept before she worked for a year on others? They got the initial concept done even though she was busy on other projects?
    • She made one design early on. She then ran other designs past Kamiya, but none of them worked out and they just stuck with the early one. Not sure how to say it in English. :) Ref 21 says "Kamiya-san [Game Director Hideki Kamiya] and I really liked the first concept, and we weren't satisfied with all the other concepts we came up with over a year, so we went back to that original idea." (The actual designs included red-haired and blonde Bayonettas, as shown in a Japanese TV special.) --an odd name 20:22, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
  • "Conversely, she ..." change "she" to Kamiya, as its unclear after the reference before that's who you're referring to.
    • "She" is Shimazaki. (Kamiya's a man!) Will change later... --an odd name 19:17, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
  • "Mari Shimazaki's "Final Design" of the witch Bayonetta had long limbs to avoid a short, thin look in the game.[16]" First off, why is final design in quotes? Second? Having long limbs gives the character a thin look, if not short. Appears to be a garbled translation? "Thin and short" doesn't really compute unless we have a sense of scale for the character.
    • Will unquote. Also, Ref 16 says "When a female character appears in an action game, her limbs often seem thin and short. That is why I tried to make her more appealing as an action game character by adjusting her proportions and extending her limbs." I guess I could emphasize the "adjusting her proportions" part, but otherwise not sure how to fix. --an odd name 20:54, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
      • I'd lose the "short" bit and just say he tried to make her more appealing with longer limbs and adjusted proportions. I think he's mixing his metaphors or meaning a bit. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 15:26, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
        • Will do later... --an odd name 00:49, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
• Reception:
  • I'm not a major fan of "pre-release" content staying in an article, espectially in such an in-depth manner. Perhaps if individual reviewer's comments were contrasted or there was a significant discrepancy it would be notable, but once it comes out in all territories I'd say lose it. We should be informing people about the final game most of all.
    • See this discussion. Maybe if I were less focused on comprehensiveness and the other editor was less pointy, it'd be a non-issue. Maybe later... --an odd name 19:55, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
  • I'd reduce the amount of quotes substantially; when you have more critics to summarize, this shouldn't be as much an issue.
    • I thought that was a problem too. It's easy to place quotes, and a bit harder (for me) to judge reviewer intent and summarize and contrast their opinions. --an odd name 19:55, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
• General comments
  • The prose is awkwardly phrased in many areas; why use three or four words when you can use one or two? Ex. "" There's lots of pervasive repetitious (and damned boring) construction: "Camera views can be rotated, enemy targets can be locked on, and weapons can be switched during play."
    • See Torsodog's fourth "Gameplay" point above—I still can't think of a way to word it in (ideally) active voice without repeating "The player" or (worse) repeating the quote. --an odd name 19:55, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I hope these comments were helpful. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 18:23, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

They were. Thank you. --an odd name 20:54, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I'll close this one. I doubt I'll request review again until (a) I play the game and read up further, and (b) the edits by others (not Fuchs or Torsodog) die down. Still clearly far from GA, etc. and I think the latest edits have made it POV and howto-ish (but they're not obvious vandalism or such, so I won't just revert outright). I'd rather take a break from the article until the game's new owners edit less (which is sad, because they're also the ones who'll probably need a good Bayo article most) and I regain interest than ram head-first into drama and dispute. If this seems unwarranted, re-open the review or ping my talk page. :) --an odd name 13:08, 8 January 2010 (UTC)