Wikipedia:Peer review/1940 Mandatory Palestine v Lebanon football match/archive1

1940 Mandatory Palestine v Lebanon football match edit

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Having just been promoted to GA, I wanted to attempt to nominate it to FA. The match is Lebanon's first international FIFA-sanctioned match, and Mandatory Palestine's last. Any comment would be very appreciated. Thanks, Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 23:46, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Coffeeandcrumbs

I think this article needs more background about the political situation surrounding this match and its aftermath (or legacy). You should mention why this was the last match for Mandatory Palestine. How this match relates to the history of the Palestine national football team and the Israel national football team. One Hundred Years of Football in Palestine and other sources may help. I am not expecting much, just a few more sentences in the Background or Post-match sections. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 19:47, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @Coffeeandcrumbs: I'm sure there's a lot to be said regarding the aftermath, but there isn't really that much to be said about the background. What I mean is, Palestine and Lebanon had a regular relation during the 1930s and 1940s, so it's as if we were talking about a current match between Italy and France. After the 1940s, a lot has happened and I'm sure we can find some interesting things to add. The why is implicitly explained when it states "(under British control)" in the lede. I can add a short phrase saying that after the British Mandate, and the establishment of Israel, the national team became what we now call Israel national football team. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 19:55, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - That works for me. I am not expecting much to be added since this is about football and not politics. But anything in the lead should be repeated in the body with more detail. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 20:04, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Can anything be said about how the Second World War affected this game if at all? --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 20:04, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @Coffeeandcrumbs: Apparently Palestine was only bombed in July 1940 by Italy. The match was played three months prior, and the War hadn't affected Palestine yet. Lebanon was affected by WW2 in 1941 so, again, after the match. The only notable thing is that British and French troops attended the match (which is included in the article). Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 20:14, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Number 57
The article reads well. However, it does have a slight feel of being stretched out a little. A few specific comments/suggestions:

Seeing as it was Lebanon's first match, it would be great to have some more background on the team – how it was put together etc, if that's possible.
- @Number 57: You're overly optimistic ahahaha. The fact that the article exists in of itself is a miracle. All sources I can find are from Palestinian newspapers or websites, while Lebanon has nothing on the matter. This is just the tip of the iceberg on Lebanese football... Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 23:32, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The name of the Lebanon coach being missing stands out. Again, I guess this is quite hard to get.
- See my previous comment. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 23:32, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
A little bit more background on the Palestine team if they'd played any games more recently than the 1938 WC qualifiers) would also be a useful addition.
- Palestine played only 5 games under the name "Mandatory Palestine": two FIFA qualifiers in 1934, two FIFA qualifiers in 1938, and this friendly. So, between 1938 and 1940, they didn't play a game. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 23:32, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It mentions the Palestine team was "mostly Jewish", but judging by the names, it was entirely Jewish. I can't view the ref – does it definitely mention this specific team, or is it a comment in general on football under the Eretz Israel football association?
- The book states: "In 1940, a friendly football match between Palestine and Lebanon was held in the MaccabiaStadium in Tel Aviv. No Arab player took part in this game, and the majority of the team was Jewish, including the coach Arthur Baar." To be fair, I'm also surprised that they used the word "majority" as I can also see that all of the players were Jewish. Maybe there are unused substitutes that are British (given that Palestine was a British colony)? Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 23:32, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In terms of aftermath, the final sentence could be followed by some detail about what the two team's next matches were in the end, which I guess didn't take place for some time afterwards. You could mention how many of the Palestine team went on to play for Israel (based on RSSSF data)
- Lebanon's next official FIFA-sanctioned game came 13 years later in the 1953 Pan Arab Games. However they did play a 7 unofficial games between 1940 and 1953. As for Israel, they played a friendly in 1948 against the USA, before taking part in the 1950 WC qualifiers. I'm unsure on how to add this information to this article. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 23:32, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - I would say something along the lines of "Lebanon's next match was played in 19XX, with X of the team that played in Palestine playing. Israel did not play their first match under their new identity until 1948, when only X of the 1940 squad were still included." Number 5 7 23:58, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers, Number 5 7 22:53, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also, if it's of any use, the programme that Eranrabl gave you the links to has a full set of five substitutes for the Palestine team: Goalkeeper Asi Asher (who apparently never received a cap according to RSSSF), Lonia Dvorin, Yosef Libermann, Perry Neufeld (Maccabi Tel Aviv) and Ernst Weinberger, known as "Vermesh" (who didn't receive his first cap until in 1949). However, this IFA article only mentions Neufeld and Asher as being on the bench alongside Lonia (which would tie up with only 14 players being given kit). The article also mentions Baar asked Maccabi Tel Aviv manager Armin Weiss to be his assistant for the game (and that Weiss gave a pre-match talk) and that after the game commentators were surprised that Neufeld hadn't played as he was one of the most prominent players in Palestine at the time, which might be worth adding. Number 57 23:21, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- This seems interesting. Is there any information regarding the players' positions? I'm unsure whether we should add all five subs, or just the Asher and Neufeld (I don't know Hebrew, so this should be evaluated by you or someone else who is fluent in the language). Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 23:32, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - Nothing more on the positions than what you can see in the programme. I would say only add Asher and Neufeld. The IFA article also seems to suggest that Baar was a stand-in for usual manager Egon Pollak, who was in Australia (oddly he.wiki doesn't list Baar as a manager of the national team). However, it would need a fluent Hebrew speaker to confirm this. Perhaps SuperJew could help? Cheers, Number 57 23:44, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - That match programme doesn't seem extremely reliable, as some of Lebanon's players are wrong. I'm assuming it to be a "predicted" line-up prior to the game. Also, looking at other single-match football articles on Wikipedia (such as the 2018 FIFA World Cup Final), only the players who actually played are displayed (so no unused substitutes). I think we should also be consistent and not include Asher and Neufeld. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 23:49, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      - No problem. However, I think it's worth mentioning somewhere that they were on the bench (and perhaps that Asher was never capped). It also gives the opportunity to comment on the surprise that Neufeld didn't play. Number 5 7 23:56, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        Where should this information be displayed? In the background or post-game? Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 00:01, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        Perhaps after "only 14 received the light-blue-and-white kit." you could state who the three subs were? Number 5 7 00:04, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Do you also have a source where is shows that Asher was never capped? As for the rest, it should be fixed (maybe the wording could use a bit of tweaking). Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 01:00, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- I was going by the RSSSF source, which doesn't have him listed as ever winning a cap. I also noticed from that list that for eight players, this was their only cap, for three it was their last and Shalomzon was the only player to go on to play for Israel. This might all be worth adding too. Number 57 02:54, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - Done. I'm also surprised about how comprehensive that RSSSF list is. One can only hope for something remotely similar for Lebanon ahahaha. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 03:23, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by SuperJew

@Number 57 and Nehme1499: I mentioned some of this on my talk page in my convo with Nehme :). It basically says that Arthur Baar was the compiler of the team, sending out the call-ups to 18 players, but no coach was officially appointed as Pollak was still in Australia. Furthermore the article seems to say that Weiss was the acting coach for the match (בבוקר המשחק הזמין מרכיב הנבחרת, ארתור באר, את ארמין וייס להיות עזר כנגדו ולעמוד במשחק נגד לבנון על הקווים. וויס אשר היה אז מאמן מכבי תל-אביב, נענה לבקשה וקבל על עצמו את המשימה. הוא הרצה בפני השחקנים לפני המשחק ובמהלכו עמד על הקווים. [In the morning of the match day, the compiler of the team, Arthur Baar, invited Armin Weiss to be his right-hand man and stand on the sidelines during the match against Lebanon. Weiss, who was then the coach of Maccabi Tel Aviv, answered the request and took on the job. He lectured the players before the games and stood on the sidelines during it]). Let me know if anything else is unclear :) --SuperJew (talk) 19:20, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @SuperJew: does it explicitly state 18 players? Because we're unsure whether there were 14 players (3 subs) or 18 (7 subs), given that the IFA website mentions 3 subs, and that only 14 players where given the "light-blue-and-white kit". Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 19:43, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - @Nehme1499: Yeah, it says 18 players received call-ups (18 שחקנים קיבלו הודעות על זימונם למשחק ממרכיב נבחרת ארץ-ישראל... [18 players received messages from the compiler of the Israel team about their call-up to the game]). As you said though it says only 14 recieved the kit, so not sure if the extra 4 sat on the bench with no kit or didn't show up at the dressing room. It says they had to travel independently to the dressing room with their own boots. I'm wondering if 4 just didn't show up, as they're not mentioned at all by name, which would seem weird when there are 2 unused subs who are mentioned by name. --SuperJew (talk) 19:50, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - @SuperJew: I think it's just best to treat it as if there were 3 official named substitutes. Maybe in 1940 the laws of the game required a maximum of three substitutes during the game, and that the other 4 were called just in case. Anyway, other than this, do you think the article needs other work? Because I think that it's in a good condition to be submitted for FA. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 19:58, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      - @Nehme1499: I'm not sure I know entirely the criteria for FA, but on the whole the article seems very comprehensive and well-referenced and you have done a great job with it, especially considering that it was 80 years ago. I was wondering, it seems the bulk of the references is from Hebrew sources... do you know if there's any information in Arabic sources? I made a little addition adding the unused subs to the match details. I would also change in the background section the line about Baar and Weiss, stating that Baar was the compiler and Weiss was the acting coach. Also worth mentioning that Egon Pollak, the regular manager at the time, wasn't around for the match. Again, all together a really great job! --SuperJew (talk) 20:18, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        @SuperJew: The section should be taken care of now. As for other sources, welcome to Lebanese football! The state of statistics and the conservation of the history of the game in Lebanon is appalling. The fact that we have so much information about the game, in of itself, is way more than I had anticipated. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 20:34, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]