Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Stephen III of Moldavia/1

Stephen III of Moldavia

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: Kept I read the below and feel dumber for it. I wish editors would take their disputes to the right place and not bludgean each other so much. This is not about whether the article is good or not and makes no reference to the criteria. It is a dispute over the reliability of a single source. We are not the reliable source noticeboard. Take the dispute there, make your case as succinct as possible, let uninvovled editors get a word in and then you can come back here to try and delist the article if it still needs to be done. AIRcorn (talk) 04:51, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

The article was recently granted the rank good article. An experienced editor expressed his doubts about the reliability of a number of cited sources, written by Kurt W. Treptow. Sorry, @Dahn:, I did not know that leading Romanian historians regularly published their works with such unreliable authors, or allowed him to edit their publications. Borsoka (talk) 16:56, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm also sorry that you did not verify Treptow's (and Watts') reputation before you used them as sources. Dahn (talk) 16:59, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

I am extremelly sorry for not verifying it, but Treptow's books were published by leading Romanian academic institutions and he co-published with the leading Romanian historians. Nevertheless, I would be grateful if you could summarize why do you think that his books do not qualify as reliable sources for WP purposes. This ([3]) explanation is quite strange. Do you think books edited by Treptow could be regarded reliable? What do you think, historians publishing their views in books edited by Treptow could be cited? If they did not verify Treptow's reputation, can we say they are reliable? Borsoka (talk) 17:08, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

There is nothing "leading" about the Center for Romanian Studies. The other publishing houses are alright, I guess, but everyone makes mistakes, and it was after all allegedly Treptow's mission to make himself and his national-communist associates seem innocuous. Dahn (talk) 17:17, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

"Do you think books edited by Treptow could be regarded reliable? What do you think, historians publishing their views in books edited by Treptow could be cited? If they did not verify Treptow's reputation, can we say they are reliable?" Books edited by Treptow should be just as suspect, by my view, because we're no longer in a position to say what is and isn't reliable in them. But you were asking me (also) about books which cite Treptow, and the claim that we might end up rejecting them is far-fetched: a historian has the job of discerning between reliable and unreliable in dubious sources, something wikipedia cannot and will not do; a historian using his critical lens on sources we deem unreliable is not himself unreliable. Dahn (talk) 17:21, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I must have misunderstood your remark that I should have verified Treptow's reliability. You may not know, but I do not live in Romania. I do not have knowledge of Romanian historians. Based on your remark, I thought that it is a well-known fact in Romania that Treptow is an unreliable source, and scholars who cooperated with him are also regarded careless, like me. Would you share your arguments with the community why do you think Treptow's books and the books edited by him are not reliable sources? Sorry, I think this argumentation ([4]) is still strange and unusual. Borsoka (talk) 17:31, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

The controversy relating to Treptow is international, so no. WADR, I don't really care what you believe is strange and unusual. Dahn (talk) 17:43, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

If my understanding is correct you cannot argue that Treptow is an unreliable source. Could you explain this edit: [5]. Was it only an act of vandalism? Borsoka (talk) 17:47, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Why, is your use of tags vandalism? That refers to the book being edited by Watts, a similarly problematic historian, know for instance for books which deny the Holocaust in Romania and claim that Ceaușescu was framed. Dahn (talk) 18:16, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, you did not mention that Watts was the reason, because you only mentioned Treptow. Interestingly, leading Romanian historians, like Ioan-Aurel Pop publicated their views in books together with such strange personalities. Are you sure about that fact? Sorry, but for me it is uncredible. I cannot imagine that historians publish together with anybody who denies Holocaust. Do you say that Romanian historians generaly deny Holocaust? Borsoka (talk) 18:38, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

I actually did mention Watts here (just above), and I also take issue with Florin Constantiniu, another one tainted by his links with the Securitate. Mr Pop also has some bewildering political positions and associations (for instance with Protochronists), but at least he has the reputation largely untarnished beyond that. His choosing to associate with this group (back then) and with other similar groups (these days) does not elevate his reputation, and certainly does not elevate theirs. Dahn (talk) 18:48, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

I'd let others weigh in if Treptow, a convicted pedophile who praised Codreanu and Antonescu and was reportedly an agent of influence for SIE, is a reliable source, and more reliable than Bain. Dahn (talk) 18:18, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

OK. You do not want to list your argumentation. You are still sulky. It does not make the decision easier. Borsoka (talk) 18:38, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

I feel I don't have to argue anything about the possible "reliability" of Treptow. I'll let others decide if an author with that reputation belongs as a source on wikipedia. Dahn (talk) 18:48, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

His criminal record--and that includes him being a convinced pedophile--is irrelevant to our evaluation of him as a historian. You'd have to do a lot better than that. At best, your argument resembles the issue of Eric Gill and the creation of his fonts, which some designers refuse to use due to his crimes as a pedophile. In the end, most people choose to separate the man from his creation, and I doubt that Wikipedia's policy views things differently. --Cei Trei (talk) 13:46, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

1. The above is a comment by the permabanned User:Anittas. 2. I know Borsoka has muddied the waters when he claimed that the only objection to Treptow is his criminal record, but I actually referred to that in addition to things which make Treptow grossly unreliable, as cited here and elsewhere: he is a Holocaust denier, a fascist admirer, an associate of national-communist cells in the secret services of the 1990s, and some other things. Glancing at what Treptow is cited for in the Wiesel Report, alongside his colleague Watts, will be more than sufficient. Need I paste it blockquotes here as well? Dahn (talk) 15:31, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Just for the record, I never stated that "the only objection to Treptow is his criminal record". Please remember, I am not from Romania and it was hard to believe that leading Romanian historians cooperated with Holocaust deniers. Borsoka (talk) 03:21, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

You had stated that the objection I raised to Treptow was relating to his criminal record (in fact, initially you had phrased it so that it would appear I am the one accusing him of pedophila), when you opened up discussion of this issue on several pages, and pinged me everywhere. Although I had clearly said that there are several major objections to Treptow, including his neofascism, you chose to misquote me, and I have since wasted a day or two answering to two respectable editors and the character Anittas above, as to why "pedophila doesn't make Treptow unreliable". I propose you did this deliberately, to soften the objections against Treptow. Dahn (talk) 06:53, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying that it was you, who initially emphasized Treptow's crime. Borsoka (talk) 09:07, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes. I have, and I will again. For reasons I have explained every time I mentioned it: they may contribute to his unreliability (particularly with their political implications), but they are just one piece in his "file". You have persistently chosen to ignore the other issues. Let's hear it then: based on the other issues, do you find him reliable? As long as you yourself don't, all of this is really sterile. As long as you do, please explain to us how and why. Dahn (talk) 09:33, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Your first comment feels somehow irrelevant to the subject. It's equal to someone joining a discussion where you are involved and accusing you of using a second Wikipedia account (Ano...) to manipulate the 'content' in your favor. You said that Borsoka should've verified his sources. I googled the name of this Kurt W. Treptow and after a careful look, I found this page that accuses Treptow of something called "selective negationism". As explained on the website: "[...] in other words, it does not deny the Holocaust as having taken place ELSEWHERE but excludes ANY participation by members of one’s own nation in its perpetration." I haven't found a source or an opinion (other than yours) that claims the fellow is a Holocaust denier: if there is one, it's not an easy one to find, so you can't burden Borsoka for not verifying every single source used in an article where one does not expect its sources to be of a controversial nature. On the contrary, this article on Romanian Holocaust deniers uses Treptow's work as a source. To accuse someone of being a Holocaust denier is serious business and should be followed by a strong argument. Have you produced a strong argument for why Treptow is a Holocaust denier? If you had such a source, all you needed to do was to simply write something to the effect that, 'Treptow should not be considered as a credible source because of [argument], according to this [source] and this [source]. And that would be the end of it. --Cei Trei (talk) 17:12, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

I must apologize. I find it extremely difficult to read Dahn's posts to the end and I ignored the second half of his post where he mentions this Wiesel Report. I had to go back to see if missed something of worth. I found "Final Report of the International Commission on the Holocaust in Romania" and it doesn't say, nor does it allude to, that Treptow is a Holocaust denier. --Cei Trei (talk) 17:37, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Of course it does, I gave the full quote below, and anyone can verify it even in your link, Anittas. The Report also notes that he published and circulated false documents, in association with Buzatu and Coja. I have never said that he denied the Holocaust everywhere, but that he denied the Holocaust in Romania. While this may not be as serious a charge, it is interesting to see sophists argue about "he's still reliable, because we like him." Dahn (talk) 06:53, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

The Wiesel report states the following: "Treptow, whose pro-Legion and pro-Antonescu sympathies were well known, for long benefited from support on the part of the Romanian authorities." It goes on to mention Treptow's meddling with what appears to be false documents. His objective was, as I see it, not to deny that the Holocaust occurred in Romania and Romanian-held territories, but to relieve the Romanian officials of responsibility for the killings. --Cei Trei (talk) 08:16, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Whatever he did, and however you want to call it, it is quite clearly incompatible with reliability. Affirm your conclusion, then: Trptow is reliable because, though he falsified documents and praised fascists, he didn't explicitly deny that Holocaust crimes happened in Romania -- just attributed them to fairies and leprechauns, which is a-okay. Enough wikilawyering, Anittas. (I won't answer to the claim that I have a second account as Anonimu, not least of all because it is plainly idiotic. If anyone seriously has any doubts about this, they can checkuser me all they want.) Dahn (talk) 08:23, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

I didn't come here to evaluate Treptow's reliability, DA(h)n. I came here to refute your argument which I believe is poorly structured. At first I thought you were using his crimes as a pedophile to discredit his reliability. Later you clarified that the main problem is with his falsification, or misuse, of sourced material, along with his Holocaust denial. As far as I've seen, Treptow is not a Holocaust denier--not for the Holocaust in Romania or elsewhere. Treptow was attempting to relieve the Romanian administration of responsibility. The difference between these two things are substantial, but then again, precision was never your forte: not as D, nor as A.

It's your duty, as an editor, to remain clear in your argument and not leave any room for misunderstanding. You didn't need to bring in his pedophile crimes to further discredit him--it's not like the guy was running for president. It was enough with what the report mentioned about him. That's all you needed to do, but now look at this page. It's a mess! Perhaps it's a representation of some intertwined thoughts... --Cei Trei (talk) 12:38, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

"I didn't come here to evaluate Treptow's reliability" -- let's stop right there; this is an admission that you came here to muddy the waters, insinuate doubts about my standing as an editor, and harass me, the latter of which is about 50% of your edits on wikipedia (here, for instance). As for the page being a mess: it was arguably a mess when we started using Treptow as a trusted source, not when/because I brought that up. Dahn (talk) 13:44, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

It's not an admission of anything. Allow me to be more clear. I don't think you are able to see things clearly; and the more complex things become, the more confused you become, regardless of the subject at hand. It was therefore a moral obligation for me to intervene in an article that I'm interested in. I highly doubt that 50% of my edits pertain to you. Not even if we count my edits on Ano... --Cei Trei (talk) 14:12, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Enough, Anittas. Dahn (talk) 14:35, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

I sought assistance from the relevant Wikiproject ([6]). I think this can be a serious issue. We should not refer to historians who deny Holocaust or cooperate with pedofiles or Nazis. However, we should make sure that this is the case. Borsoka (talk) 18:51, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

I also sought assistence from WP:RS [(https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AIdentifying_reliable_sources&type=revision&diff=793275524&oldid=793002075)]. Borsoka (talk) 19:04, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Some facts:

• Kurt W. Treptow
  • pedophile: Staszek Lem (talk) 19:34, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Treptow was the director of Center for Romanian Studies in Iasi, so it terms of reputation, CRS would be a circular reference.
• Larry L. Watts:
  • Who says he is Holocaust denier?
  • Indee, he is described as historical revisionist: "Another supporter of the official Romanian history was the American Larry Watts, author of a book called Romanian Cassandra: Ion Antonescu." (O Casandra a Romaniei: Ion Antonescu si lupta pentru reforma: 1918-1941, 1994)

Staszek Lem (talk) 19:34, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Treptow (a convicted and jailed pedophile, not just an accused one) is also questioned as an author, for his links with neofascist and national-communist groups -- which is also an accusation brought up against Watts. Their (quite serious) critics suggest that they acted as legitimating agents for a political and historiographic school which gives the veneer of credibility to the nationalist synthesis of the late Ceaușescu era. The accusation, for instance, is that Treptow's child abuse was known and condoned by his contacts in the crypto-communist cell of Iași, and by some in the post-communist secret services (the same services who repressed democratic protests), because he lent them credibility; and that Treptow agreed to join in the charade precisely because the authorities granted him access to victims.

This for instance is an article outlining the case against Treptow and his associates, published by a respected literary critic and journalist in the leading literary magazine of Romania. Running it through google translate will probably clarify enough of the meaning. Highlights include his links with ultranationalists, open praise for the fascist leader Codreanu, and apparent lack of scholarly credentials (contrasting his intense promotion by a select group of Romanian institutions, all with the same agenda and connections). This is Treptow, not just Watts.

For the record, I do not believe that all authors who published with Watts and Treptow should be automatically seen as unreliable/unquotable. I do however have to ask if the books which have Watts and Treptow as editors of coauthors can be seen as RSes, regardless of whether other authors are reliable. Dahn (talk) 21:37, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

As for Watts and the Holocaust, also consider Paul A. Shapiro or Michael Shafir, and the Wiesel Report. Both of the latter also discuss Treptow and his "work". Dahn (talk) 21:43, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

See also Irina Livezeanu for the very book used in the Stephen article. Dahn (talk) 22:40, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Why do you think that historians who cooperated with an author who denied Holocaust could be cited? Borsoka (talk) 02:12, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Because they do not automatically share the guilt, and because there is nothing to suggest that they themselves were/are Holocaust deniers -- just people who made an inept choice. I personally could live just fine without citing them altogether, but this is me trying to define an objective standard. Dahn (talk) 07:25, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

This distinction seems to be quite subjective. Irina Livezeanu did not make difference between Holocaust deniers, pedofiles and other authors when reviewing their common book. Why do you think we should distinguish them based on the same review you referred to above? Borsoka (talk) 10:09, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't know or care that we should, I can live with either situation. But here's a thing: by that standard, Livezeanu's review should render the whole book regardless of the individual authors, unreliable (the Wiesel report also condemns strongly some of the claims advanced in that book). Which is precisely what I was advancing as a possibility here, for this and other cases where one/several of the authors/editors/publishers are discredited: that we could refrain from citing those books altogether. Should this also refer to the other books that those authors published without Treptow, Watts etc.? Read my lips: I don't know, I don't care, I defer judgment on that to whomever is looking into this. Dahn (talk) 10:41, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

OK, I understand. Even if reading your lips always surprises me: you was the one who drew our attention to the issue during a content debate, but you are unwilling to help us to understand the situation. Sorry for disturbing you. I will not any more in connection with this issue. Borsoka (talk) 11:24, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

I cannot possibly summarize the situation better then the sources I pointed you to here and in other places where you opened up discussions. As for the rest: I responded to your questions and presented the solutions. If we decide Treptow and Watts are unreliable, we can either (1) cite (presumably with caution) sources that also have other authors/editors; or, (2) not cite those books at all, but cite other books which have authors that associated with Treptow and Watts (be it for lack of information, lack of cognition, carelessness, or collusion -- doesn't matter), as long as Watts and Treptow are not authors/editors of those books; or, (3) not cite any books by authors who once associated with Watts or Treptow. I lean toward (2), but, for Christ, understand: it is not my choice to make, nor do I impose this on anyone. Get it? Dahn (talk) 11:40, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

• Okay, since there are some editors who still feign shock at being told that Treptow is not just a former convict, but an unreliable former convict, here's a quick review of just one of the sources discussing his scholarly credentials. The Wiesel Commission report, which is signed by tens of historians, including Watts and Treptow's one-time co-editor Scurtu, mentions a book authored by Treptow and Holocaust denier Gheorghe Buzatu:

[Holocaust revisionists] started by presenting excerpts from what they claimed was the 1955 testimony of the former leader of the Federation of Jewish Communities in Romania, Wilhelm Filderman, before a Swiss court. The document has never been produced and whether it really exists is doubtful. The alleged testimony had been mentioned for the first time in a 1994 volume in an editor's note written by American historian Kurt Treptow, who was residing in Romania. Treptow, whose pro-Legion and pro-Antonescu sympathies were well known, had long benefited from support on the part of the Romanian authorities. Coja wrote that it was from this tome that he had first learned about the existence of the Swiss 'testimony.' According to Treptow, the document could be found in the archives of the Buzatu-managed Iași Center for European History and Civilization. However, Buzatu was eventually forced to admit that the alleged 'testimony' had been simply lifted from an article published in the tabloid Baricada. The tabloid's editors claimed to have received it from Matei Cazacu, a historian of Romanian origins born in France. Upon being contacted by the Theodor Wexler, the vice president of the Filderman Foundation, Cazacu declined any knowledge of the 'document.' ... Treptow ... would again cite from it (while avoiding indicating the source) in Kurt Treptow (ed.), A History of Romania (Iași: The Center for Romanian Studies, The Romanian Cultural Foundation, 1995), pp. 485, 499-500. This tome was massively disseminated abroad by the Romanian Cultural Foundation, which enlisted the help of Romanian embassies for the purpose. Several Romanian officials and some historians were forced to face an embarrassing situation in 2002, when Treptow was put on trial and sentenced for pedophilia. (pages 357-358 in 2004 edition).

The same Report, on Watts:

Also important was the role of Iosif Constantin Drăgan, a former Iron Guard sympathizer, who became a millionaire in the West and later a persona grata with Romania's dictator. Having metamorphosed into Antonescu's most fierce advocate, Drăgan contributed to the campaign waged abroad by the regime to rehabilitate the Marshal and recruited domestic and foreign historians into the rehabilitation drive. Among them were Mihai Pelin, Gheorghe Buzatu, and Larry Watts. (page 348) ... Larry Watts and Mircea Ionnițiu turned Irving [i. e. David Irving] into a legitimate and respectable scholarly authority by citing his work in arguments meant to exonerate Antonescu. (page 362) ... Nor have only Romanians embraced the argument [that Antonescu saved Jews]. According to Larry L. Watts, a U.S. historian who resides in Bucharest, the Marshal had been the 'de facto' protector of Jews against plans to implement the 'Final Solution,' because he shared the 'Western standards... concerning human and fundamental civic rights.' (page 373)

This is all also found in a link I already gave just above. Now you can stop pretending not to have seen it. Dahn (talk) 15:36, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

And I will highlight the point: him publishing false documents to support the notion that Holocaust participant Antonescu was a great guy is just one of the issues here. His credentials and scholarship, as shown, are also doubted by serious scholars, but I frankly feel that by this point the statements in the Wiesel Report (and deepened by, say, Simon Geissbühler, C. Iordachi, or Michael Shafir) should already and in themselves raise enough red flags for any editor that is actually concerned with wikipedia's credibility. Even by abstracting his participation in denialist propaganda, or the very fact that said propaganda is denialist: the man is shown to have deliberately falsified historical records. It would be very interesting to hear you argue that he is still reliable after having done that.

If not, glance over Livezeanu, exposing the very volume Borsoka added in good faith as a source to this article, discussing its reliance on national-communist tropes and its propaganda for the fascist Iron Guard. There are also several articles in Romanian newspapers that laugh off his contributions: for instance (in Romanian) his 1986 letter to Ceaușescu and his Securitate links or his contribution to Securitate propaganda. Anglist and journalist Mircea Mihăieș also discussed the Treptow scandal in an article for the leading literary magazine (in Romanian), arguing that Treptow's rapid rise and transgressions were facilitated by his contacts in the Romanian secret services, and also noting his neofascism. His carrying water for the Romanian Foreign Intelligence Service, and especially for the shady nationalist Ioan Talpeș, was also noted by Le Temps: (in French) "An American pedophile sows trouble in Romania". This article also notes that Treptow was early on a protege of the dictator's brother and pseudohistorian, Ilie Ceaușescu, and also implies that he was only charged with pedophila, after an initial release, because the city population had had enough, and his high-ranking protectors had to step back. (Mihăieș also notes the unusual leniency Treptow received from the authorities, as does academic Tom Gallagher.) Dahn (talk) 07:17, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Your last edit (during a content debate) shows that you think that books edited by Treptow are also unreliable ([7]). Is this the case? Would you please share your arguments with us? Borsoka (talk) 09:50, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

As stated over and over again: yes, I personally lean toward that. Because I believe that once a work has been shown to be authored and/or edited by a discredited person, wikipedia editors (unlike professional historians) cannot be expected to perform original research and decide based on it which parts of a work under this category are/aren't reliable. The very exercise would be absurd: "Yes, David Irving is unreliable about Auschwitz, but I feel he makes a good point about Hitler." Once wikipedia identifies something as an unreliable source, it could only be used, at most, in claims it makes about itself. Dahn (talk) 10:06, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Anticipating: but do I feel that Ciobanu himself is unreliable? No, most likely he isn't -- though he presumably does have a bias, he is quotable with that bias and all, and can be compared to sources saying otherwise (as we are advised to do). But I have to ask if we can still cite him through a book edited by Treptow, and therefore suspect; surely, Ciobanu's interpretation of the events can be picked up from his other vast contributions to the subject, the ones not carrying Treptow's seal of approval. But again: I defer judgment to others as to whether this is or isn't the best approach; until others weigh in, the tags stay. Dahn (talk) 10:11, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

For whatever reason two editors decided to drop my name in the discussion, with implied accusations of sock puppetry. Thus, I have to start by rejecting such accusations and making editors aware that they may constitute personal attacks. Regarding Treptow, while indeed his work on recent Romanian history is really dubious and should be used with extreme care, his works regarding older history reflect more or less (a slightly dated) Romanian historiographical consensus. Nevertheless, given Treptow's issues, I would prefer him not to be cited anywhere on WP (except in the article on himself, maybe), as I think more reliable sources in Romanian supporting his points about medieval history could be easily found (by editors such as Dahn or Cei Trei; especially the first could just pick up some Romanian popular history book, even when that doesn't agree with his other sources)Anonimu (talk) 08:18, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

I haven't accused you of anything, I merely defended myself against the risible claim that you are my sockpuppet (or vice versa); it was inevitable that I would mention your name. On the rest, we agree fully: I also feel that the facts picked up from Treptow could be picked up from other sources, whatever their POV (as long as it, the POV, is within the pale, which Treptow's, I argue, is not). You of course know that I have added all sorts of sources in articles I wrote, and confronted their POVs -- as we should. In fact, if you find the time to look at the above, you'll see that this started because I had done precisely that: added sources. Dahn (talk) 01:04, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Just for the record. This whole started because of a content dispute in connection with one specific fact you want to insert in the article based on a 110-year-old book. Remember, you wrote a congratulation to me after this article received GA status ([8]). Later, you revealed that you "always found it yucky that you felt the need to rely on [Treptow], but it was not a major issue" ([9]). And finally you concluded that a study published in a book edited by Treptow (not a study written by him!) was also unreliable, only because it contradicted a marginal claim of yours. I think the whole edit history demonstrates your attitude which can hardly be described as constructive. Borsoka (talk) 03:47, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

I have extended the doubt about books edited by Treptow, without passing any judgment on the matter, with a line of thought that anyone can follow in my arguments; I am sure that uninvolved editors will at least have to ponder if a book edited by a man with Treptow's reputation can be used as a source -- you yourself could explain your rationale as to why you find Treptow unreliable as an author, but reliable as an editor. I have also explained that I tend to find works on this subject (edited or authored) by Treptow to be borderline (overall "yucky", but not necessarily disqualifying) -- overall, you have done great work improving this article, and I stand by my congratulations. Now, you construe a claim that a book is necessarily unreliable because it is "110 years old" (which means absolutely nothing in itself), and have tagged references from it as unreliable; surely, this begs the question as to why we should accept books by Treptow, or by Watts, as reliable sources: the "110-year old book" and Bain were never questioned by anyone but you, while Treptow has no reputation left, and at least one of the books you cite him with is discussed as nationalist propaganda. So please understand how one hinges on the other, and how I'm open to any resolution as long as the issues (which you yourself deemed "serious") are considered, not swept under the rug. Dahn (talk) 07:04, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

As I have several times stated, I had no knowledge about Romanian historians (and historians working in Romania). Sorry, but the claim that leading Romanian historians cooperated with deniers of Holocaust is surprising for me. I think Romanian wikipedians can decide that a book published in Romania can be regarded as a reliable source, because I have no deeper knowledge about this issues. Nevertheless, you let me refer to sources that you regarded unreliable and only used your knowledge of the cited author during a content debate. This is a fact which questions your good faith. Please also read again my argumentation about the 110-year-old book (which is only used by you to verify a marginal claim which contradicts to all other cited secondary sources even if you deny it.) Cooperating with other editors is obviously difficult for you, because all remarks which imply that your edits may contain errors, weasel words or original research outrage you ([10], [11], [12],[13], [14], [15]). Discussion is a normal way of working for most people I know, so this attitude is also a surprise for me, especially taking into account the high level of your edits. Borsoka (talk) 07:51, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Enough. The "110-year-old book" and another book say things that are not contradicted by other sources -- because you were unable to say where in those sources is stated that there was no war between the Poles and the Turks before Colomea. The rest is of course of no relevance: feel free not to believe me when I tell you that your very claims about Bain begged the question about Treptow/Watts (who are in any case discredited by the outside world, whereas Bain is questioned by you), feel free to depict me as spiteful or opportunistic, but what we're discussing here is utterly independent of that, and refers simply to whether wikipedia can rely on sources such as Treptow. As long as you yourself can recognize that the Treptow issue is serious, there is really nothing more to talk about how I'm not "constructive" in tagging him. Is questioning my reasons constructive?

Also, what "outrages" me is you wasting my time by picking at just about every single edit I made, when you misquote policy and introduce your personal preferences as policies (for instance, you were unable to show which part of WP:WEASEL covers the use of "possibly", though you pontificated that me using it is an instance of me adding weasel words to the source; even in the Bain & Kohn thing, your whole case relies on how a source disagreeing with you makes it unreliable). While trying to improve this and other articles (which you yourself acknowledged I have done), I have literally wasted five days of my life on your elaborate pretensions and your imperfect understanding of English (such as when you claimed that describing something as a "popular account" means disqualifying it, probably on the assumption that "popular account = folk tale"; or when you theorized that the simple statement "[Stephen's patronage] contributed to the development of Church Slavonic literature" is problematic, even when referring to Church Slavonic in Romania, because it might be read to mean that such of contribution is of universal, not contextual, importance -- an utterly ridiculous reading, but I let it slide). Yet the moment I bring up a serious issue with your sourcing, and proposed several solutions to tackle it, instead of discussing the issue you bring up my character and my supposed motivations -- an opinion which, WADR, I couldn't care less about. Dahn (talk) 08:47, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

I think your above outburst of anger is again a good example of your attitude. Every single edit? Please compare your edits ([16]) and my edits ([17]). Yes, my English is weak. However, presenting a widely accepted scholarly as a popular account suggest that either you cannot fully understand the same language or you try to disqualify scholarly theories based on your own bias. Yes, the text about Church Slavonic literature was problematic and you acknowledged it through adding further references. You should decide whether Treptow is a serious issue or not. Borsoka (talk) 09:23, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Part of the problem above might be self-victimization: there is no "anger" in my message, it's a simple and direct statement of what I believe are the facts of the matter. When you read it in your mind, try changing the tone from "angry" to "blunt", and you'll have an image of how I wrote it.

Yes, every single edit: I have added numerous sources for all of what I've added, and yet you insisted on tagging most of my edits for various issues which are mostly imaginary, then opening up discussions that detailed how you, with your approximate English, read them, and how it must be that everyone reads them like that. Though even that was certainly not constructive, and took up days of my time, I have been responsive and rephrased things you claimed were ambiguous, though I myself did not view them as ambiguous (and no, I did not add more references to please you: most references I added because I was adding more to the text either way). "Popular" account refers to its overall popularity, Borsoka, not to a lack of acceptance in scholarship -- even if you construe it to mean that it is dismissive, you cannot possibly claim that I intended to dismiss it just because you get stuck on reading "popular" as folksy or uscholarly (though get this: it is in fact not a scholarly theory at all, it is a claim made by Ureche, many decades after the fact; but regardless, describing it as a popular account was not intended to dismiss it, but actually to validate the fact that it is prevailing among those authors who recount Stephen's rule). In describing as "problematic" the passage about Church Slavonic, you extended another skewed reading of that phrase -- you claimed something along the lines of "not any book contributes to the development of X literature", citing the books published in English, not all of which contribute to English literature etc. This even though the text referred to Slavonic literature in Moldavia, and surely the lord of Moldavia commissioning books contributed to the development of literature there. But even if it were to hinge on your quaint reading: yes, it was a contribution to the Slavonic literature everywhere, since Slavonic, unlike English, was only used by a couple of countries, of which several were even more undeveloped than Moldavia. And of course all of this was already validated by the cited sources already in that version of the article. Lastly, "contribution" doesn't imply "major contribution", this is another thing that you project from inside your entrenched editing. A minor contribution, if that is what Stepehn's was, is also a contribution.

In the end, you insisted on tagging a reference you feel is outdated, without advancing a source that contradicts it about those specific claims (for the 19th time: no source you can cite disputes that the war started before Colomea, not that there was a league). When you allow yourself to tag sources as unreliable for subjective reasons, then you invite in questions about the objective problems of your sources. And these stand out on their own, regardless of your theories about me -- even if, in tagging them and bringing up the issue, I should be entirely scheming and dishonest or rude or insane or what have you, what matters is is that there is an issue.

But do take a moment to consider this: you imply that I am a hypocrite for sending you congratulations for your (overall) good edits, and for addressing your objections even as I found them frivolous. Leave the theory aside for a moment and concentrate on this: we have sunk to the level where you're badgering me for behaving like editors should. Do you really want to go down that path?

Just again, the list of my frivilous objections: ([18] and [19]). Borsoka (talk) 10:37, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm done replying to "defend" myself here, but feel free to go on, if you feel like it. I'll just ignore the chaff and the grief, and wait until you produce something resembling a point. Dahn (talk) 10:02, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Your remark about the scholars who accepted Ureche's report can be read here ([20]). Of course, you can be convinced that they were wrong - but presenting their view as a popular account is quite a brave act. The debate about the reliability of the 110-year-old book can be read here. Borsoka (talk) 10:23, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, and this is precisly my remark: ""Popular account": must I really summarize the loaf of text in Rezachievici where he notes that the vast majority of historians have taken up the claim in Ureche word for word (making his account "popular" in that sense), but that they did so without wondering why Stephen and only Stephen was elected in that entire period, even though he had already been associate ruler?" Surely anyone can see how I used "popular account" and precisely how Borsoka misunderstood it; they can also see how I incorporated his objection in the current text, even though I felt it was frivolous.

As for the other debate: it is an interesting study case in Borsoka reading things in the sources that aren't there, that is precisely the accusation which s/he throws around. The dispute is to whether there was a Polish-Ottoman war before Colomea -- two sources argue that there was, with very precise statements (that the war started a full year before Colomea, that Poland formed a league etc.); Borsoka claims that two other sources contradict that, even though they are entirely silent on this particular issue (they mention neither a precise date when the war started, nor anything on the league, though one of them claims that the Poles did nothing to help Moldavia -- try as you might, even that vague opinion does not contradict the claim, just like saying that France did nothing to help Poland in 1939 doesn't contradict that there was a WWII in 1939). Dahn (talk) 10:36, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

• The full debate about the reliability of the 110-year-old book can be read here. Borsoka (talk) 10:39, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

References